Israel sharpens its tone to Spain: "The Inquisition is over. Those who harm us, we will harm them"
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Just a moment...
https://www.elnacional.cat/en/politics/israel-sharpens-tone-spain-palestine-inquisition-harm_1223835_102.html
https://www.elnacional.cat/en/politics/israel-sharpens-tone-spain-palestine-inquisition-harm_1223835_102.html
No one expects a state official to mention the fucking Inquisition to defend their own crimes against humanity.
Ikr! Pretty sure its a reference to the Spanish Inquisition's expulsion of Jewish people in the 1490s.
In other words it's not just super random whataboutism, it's also a dogwhistle to the "chosen people versus antisemitic rest of the world" narrative that Netanyahu et al use to drum up support from their base.
Israel's cries of victimhood were already starting to wear thin when it was focused on the Holocaust. Yes, it was a terrible tragedy, but it's 80 years ago at this point - very, very few people are left that were directly involved and the circumstances have changed significantly since then. But going back over five hundred years to try to find "gotchas" is just sad and counterproductive.
People are suffering right now and being persecuted right now, and it has nothing to do with the Inquisition or the Nazis.
It's even more ironic when you know that the PSOE, the current ruling party in Spain, voted in favor of granting Spanish nationality to the descendants of the Sephardic Jews who were expelled by the Inquisition 5 centuries ago and applied for it.
Funny. The Inquisition came after the Muslim rulers were driven out of Spain. Before there was a vibrant Jewish life in southern Spain.
Israel is making life very dangerous for Jews the rest of the world over, including myself. They want to make it sound like all Jews are Israelis because it helps their cause. Which, of course, suggests that all Jews favor genocide and that emboldens bigots.
And here we go again. Spain isn't persecuting Jews.
On September 11, some Saudis attacked the World Trade Centre. America retaliated by going to war with Afghanistan, found they had nothing of value, and then Rumsfeld said since Iraq has oil, they should go after them instead. The unprovoked attack and illegal war that still, to this day, has had zero repurcussions against Bush, Blair and the rest who started it, and caused individuals from militant faction groups to rise up and attack those nations in the form of terrorist attacks, perpetuating a cycle of hate and loss.
More than twenty years later, uneducated people still fail to see the distinction between individual terrorists and an entire people who follow Islam. Islamophobia is on the rise right now simply because people are protesting the war in Gaza, and still equating those protesters to the terrorism from years prior.
I say all this because I can see how hate, and in your case, antisemitism lingers. Your actions are not that of the IDF, your words are not the same as aggrevators like Ben Gvir and your policies are not the same as Netenyahu's, but because you're Jewish, those things are all the same now in the eyes of many uneducated people.
It was the same with idiots attacking random (elderly!?) Chinese civilians on the street as a result of COVID lockdowns. The blame lies chiefly with the media and its incendiary bias towards all things that don't align with their backward views, and allowing people like Trump to stand on a podium and address millions of people with lies and baseless claims.
What happened to Muslims in America after 9/11 was disgusting and sickening and I felt so terrible for them when it happened and still do, which is why I know that this bigotry is unlikely to be coming from them. They know what it's like.
Israel know what it's like to be the victim of a genocide and yet that still hasn't given them much pause.
Remember all the fruitcakes saying a secret cabal of Jews runs the world? Israel is surely pumping them up and their outside influence on our politicians is making it look even worse.
That's definitely true. I've seen those fruitcakes get more emboldened lately in various online discussions.
But not even them. There is bigotry from people who don't even realize it, people who would hate the idea that they were saying something bigoted... but they still will say "Jews" when they mean "Israel" and that is mostly Israel's fault. And it's those people who can be swayed by the fruitcakes because of that. Suddenly Israel isn't the enemy, Jews are. And there are Jews everywhere. And some of them are rich and powerful.
I'll say it once, I'll say it again, Hamas played the whole damn world like fucking puppets with one attack.
I'd be absolutely shocked if the actual leaders that planned the attack are in the strip. Now any Palestenians that might have been against Hamas in the strip are stuck fighting a nuclear power in full "us vs them" mentality, Israel reacted exactly how Israel does any time it has been attacked, which is with overwhelming and vicious force now putting the country doing monstrous actions against civilians going for what looks like a full genocide, your exact point on a rival religion suddenly now giving a lot of voice to the conspiracy theories, it has created an even bigger divide in the US (but then again what doesn't anymore) and Saudi Arabia who was working on deals with Israel has backed all the fucking way off and NATO is sitting there awkwardly trying to decide exactly where on the line it wants to walk seeing as the US can't bring itself to go against Israel while Russia is rather uppity at the moment.
Taking away any conversation on ethics, which is nearly impossible... I just can't believe these leaders are this fucking short sighted.
This is the best comment I read on the topic on Lemmy. Thank you for making a great point and not bluntly resorting to antisemitism.
My favourite is when nazis say it because, by their own logic, thatwould make the Jews the master race.
I legitimately worry Israel being genocidal maniacs will lead to a wave of antisemitism, similarly to how Covid-19 having alleged Chinese origins lead to a lot of Anti-Asian crime in America.
will lead to a wave of antisemitism
"Will"? It has already been happening for quite a while. I know at least two people who confuse Israel with Judaism, and as a result have become antisemitic. One of them is my grandmother.
Has there been an increase in attacks on random Jews? This is a fascist talking point to shut down protests. The rabi at our state college for that one Hasidic organization (the tunnel controversy one) was spouting this nonsense.
Yes there has. It is not just a fascist talking point. However, I know how this goes. I provide examples and they aren't good enough because there's never enough examples to prove that there are people out there who might possibly use legitimate anti-Israel sentiment to embolden bigots when I give them.
I found this article, but they define attacks as using antisemetic language, including attacking Zionism. It also states that "attacks" have been on the rise for the past few years. I didn't believe that the Jewish population is at a higher risk on being injured or killed based on these statistics.
When did I say anything about being injured or killed? If you don't know how awful it is to be personally attacked by a bigot for just being who you are, congratulations on being privileged.
But like I said, there is pretty much nothing I could possibly say to convince some people that Israel helps foment anti-Jewish sentiment.
There are some people I cannot convince that there is any antisemitism at all, which is its own form of bigotry.
You said they were making life"dangerous." Since when does having your feelings hurt put you in danger? I've definitely had my fair share of altercations. I've been called the n word, even though I'm white, a homosexual, you name it. In experience people will find anything to take a dig at you to piss you off. It's just easy to use your religion to make you mad. It doesn't mean the person is actually antisemetic, they're just being an asshole.
Again, you must have the privilege of never having been attacked by a bigot. You don't actually know whether or not they're going to hurt you after they tell you something like how you killed Jesus. The more bigotry, the more chance of violence.
I can't believe this needs to be explained to you. It's like you don't even know what bigotry is.
It's no different than calling someone fat, someone with glasses four eyes, a bald man chrome dome, a woman a bitch/cunt , a homosexual a baguette, etc. Criticizing a fascist religion and a country is perfectly fine. I would gladly call a Hasidic/southern Baptist/Mormon/Catholic/Saudi a cousin fucker.
Israel and Russia acting pretty much the same way at the moment. Yet most of the Western world supports one while condemning the other.
I don't know anyone outside of the political class and a few right wing nutters that supports israel, especially after the images coming out of rafah in the last few days
edit: even my daily heil reading "shoot em in the channel" relative was perturbed
I absolutely support the right of Israel to exist and defend itself against Hamas. I just don't think that this sanctions the bombing of innocent Palestinians in Gaza or to pursue an aggressive settlement policy.
I am in favor of Israel.
I am strongly opposed to Netanyahu. Fuck that guy and his entire government.
I support the right of Israeli civilians who aren't part of the right wing to exist. The rest should reap what they sow.
It would have been harder to support Ukraine if they went and killed thousands of innocent Russian before being aggressed by Russia. But they didn't.
Most of the west do support the right for Israel to defend itself from such attack, but there is no doubt that Israel went way to far with their riposte. No matter if the Hamas uses the Palestinian as meat shield, Israel made so many "mistakes" and killed so many innocents that it should have asked long ago for the UN to intervene in their place to avoid further unnecessarily killing.
No they really are hateful people, they are just using this as an excuse to kill people they hate, it's not a mistake they're meaning to do this. They were never going to ask the UN to intervene because that would have robbed them of the opportunity to commit mass slaughter.
You're wrong. Palestinians have a right to defend themselves, but they're being oppressed and genocided for decades and no one gives a shit. Israel doesn't have ANY rights.
I never denied Palestinians right to defend themselves. They are oppressed by an apartheid-like regime (no matter how democratic it is), and have every right to denounce that. But I can't either blame the Israeli to try to defend themselves when Hamas goes and assassinate men women and children in cold blood. No amount of oppression can justify this kind of violence.
And now we got Hamas hiding behind the starving Palestinian population, while Israel indiscriminately bomb everyone with no care for their safety.
In the end we have two evil fighting each other, while the general populace (especially Palestinian) suffers. I can't support either, best I can is to support ending this senseless war to allow those who suffers to rebuild and seek a peaceful solution that bring everyone together as equals. There was multiple time in history where we were quite close to a solution, but every time, extremist of both side went and fucked everything over.
Israel dismisses any and all criticism, and always complains about medieval history as an ad hominem attack. Turkey complains about Israel killing Turkish civilians? Israel replies something about Turkey mistreating Armenians. German government complains about mistreatment of Palestinians? Call them modern Nazis. Now Spain gets derided as something from nearly 600 years ago.
The Armenian genocide wasn't that long ago, it happened during my grandmother's lifetime, and the current leader of Turkey still denies it was a genocide. But bringing up the Spanish inquisition in 2024 is wack.
Armenian genocide could have happened yesterday, OP was drawing attention to the raging whataboutism that forms a central pillar of Israeli politics.
Yeah, I get that. I just wanted to clarify that it was a lot more recent than the middle ages, especially with how much genocide denial has been attempting to minimize those atrocities lately.
"UK wants to talk about a Healthcare System mere centuries after their mismanaged handling of the Bubonic plague?" - Israel probably
I mean what else can someone say about Spain?
"You no good, uhh, soccer playing, erm, siesta taking...urm... flamenco...look over there, it's the Spanish inquisition!"
I'm sorry, are you comparing Spain to a religious crusade when you're literally in the middle of genociding an ethnicity and their religion? You're fucking insane Israel.
Yeah but Israel is a country. It is not representative of all Jews, as much as Netanyahu would like it to be.
They are in the mood to fight everybody. They no longer care about optics. Genocide without borders to be continued.
As long as the US backs them up they feel invincible. I'm sure the nukes help, too. They're like Russia.
Yeah and if they start attacking NATO countries it's going to end badly for them. The US will drop support like a hot rock. They really won't like it I'm sure, but they are not going to back Israel over NATO, it's just not happening.
Do you mean that oopsie with the USS Liberty? That kind of thing happens occasionally but cooler heads prevail as long as everyone communicates. There was also an incident when a Turkish f-16 (Turkey being a NATO member) shot down a Russian su-24, but nobody went to war over it.
Point stands - Israel attacking a NATO nation wouldn’t cause american support to waver. Israel serves our colonial interests too much for that.
Yes I'm just saying that if the sides (even if they are enemies like Russia/NATO) are not interested in going to war, they will tolerate isolated incidents. even with casualties. This isn't something unique to the america-israel relationship
Yeah, not a conflict. And so long ago that the current political situation is totally different.
The US wouldn't have a choice, if Israel attacks a NATO country then it's article 5 automatically. Then their only option would be to leave NATO and they're not going to do that.
You are not arguing in good faith.
Okay man. Note that nowhere in the comment chain before you decided to chime in did anyone say conflict. And as far as I know, an attack is an attack and it usually warrants retaliation. But Israel gets unlimited oopsies, lord forbid that Egypt or Lebanon does this, it’s immediately casus belli if the current governments aren’t friendly.
Not only is the inquisition over, but Spain is welcoming Sephardic Jews and offers them citizenship. This is how one Palestinian refugee from Yaffa got Spanish citizenship.
A 26-year-old lecturer in architecture at Birmingham City University, Iskandarani has been stateless for most of her life, possessing only a Lebanese travel document that defines her as a Palestinian refugee.
But after discovering that her Palestinian father had Jewish roots going back to Spain, Iskandarani was able to claim Spanish citizenship thanks to a 2015 law that promised to naturalize anyone whose Jewish ancestors fled the Spanish Inquisition.
“Absurdly our conversion to Islam got us exiled from Jaffa yet again for again being of different religion and ethnicity,” she wrote. “Quite ironic don’t you think being exiled twice for the exact same reason?”
I hate that people have to prove they have the right ancestry just to be treated like human beings.
Comparing the current ruling party in Spain with the inquisition is specially ironic, if you know that they voted in favor of granting the descendants of the Sephardic Jews expelled by the Inquisition the Spanish nationality if they applied for it, less than 10 years ago.
https://religionnews.com/2014/02/17/sephardic-jews-eager-apply-spanish-citizenship/
If anything, you could argue that this created an Islamophobic or Pro-Jewish double standard, since the descendants of Muslims expelled by the inquisition weren't granted that right.
Such empty threats. I'd love to see them try to attack an European nation, their support in the west would end literally instantly.
Don't be agitated by the headline.
Here 'harm' is meant in a diplomatic way. They put restrictions on the Spanish consulate. It is strong language, but nobody is talking about physical harm (just as Spain hasn't harmed Israel physically).
From the article:
According to these measures, Israel prohibits the Spanish consulate in Jerusalem from "conducting consular activities or providing consular services to residents of the Palestinian Authority", although it clarified that the measure does not apply to people with Spanish nationality.
So if a Spanish-Palestinian couple wants to sort things out to visit Spain or deal with administrative stuff they can't. Palestinians who have family in Spain and need to deal with their affairs can't now.
While it is not physical harm, it has huge psychological implications and many of which are equally terrible. Imagine a family member dies in Spain and you can't even go to the consulate to arrange for the funeral.
their support in the west would end literally instantly.
I don't know... You might be surprised how far some European countries are willing to go to gobble up zionist dick
No chance. An open military attack would be the end of Israel. Spain is a EU and NATO member. Article 5 would be called and accepted by most NATO members. If not the alliance would be over immediately.
Lets assume the US noped out (which they would never do if Israel dared to attack Spain). That would be the end of NATO but Israel would have to deal with the EU. Even Spain by itself could cause some serious damage to Israel. And they wouldn't be by themselves.
I'm Portuguese, and my country is the historical rival of Spain. An attack on Spain would be like a direct attack on us and most EU members feel the same.
This, of course, is hypothetical. There's no way Netanyahu would pull such a dumb and unthinkable move.
that is the gist of most right wing/nationalist leaders' speeches. For the better part of the last decade Erdoğan has been doing the same against the EU (and international shadow enemies) to gain votes.
Fuck Israel right in the ass with a 2x4.
They have become the very genocidal monster that they were once the victims of.
Fuck Israel.
Israel was never the Nazis' victim, Jewish people were. Israel is not equal to Jewish people and this is doing a huge disservice to all the Jewish people around the world fighting against this colonial state.
Wasn't modern Israel founded by Holocaust Survivors or something? I dunno history I just always heard that....
Zionism is an Austrian idea, that the British started to enact after the Ottoman Empire fell in 1917. The United Nations then published their partition plan in 1947 which was followed by the Israel Declaration of Independence in 1948.
Which means yes, technically the founding was done by Holocaust Survivors, but in reality Israels history is not too dissimilar to Colonialism.
Thanks, that may be what I'm thinking of. Regardless of how Israel started, what they're doing now is Genocide.
We also have to remember that prior to 1917, in order to get their cooperation, The British and French promised various Arab states land and independence after the fall of the Ottomans. Only to THEN turn around and form the Sykes-Picot agreement divvying up the land amongst themselves. This is where the idea of a Zionist state first began to be discussed and various Arab groups were betrayed to make it happen.
I'm not saying terrorists aren't evil. But everything in the middle east is the result of "the west" fucking the people over there over for more than a hundred years.
To be fair, Jews were also massive victims of empire and colonialism. They were kicked around Europe for centuries since the Greeks and the Romans.
Now, on the fall of the Ottoman Empire all kinds of populations coalesced into nation-states (also, all while kicking out people that did not identify with the new nation - massive population exchanges at the time, millions of dead in forced marches out of a region). Most back to the heartlands of their ancestral lands - so the idea wasn't far fetched.
Unfortunately, unlike those other populations Jews were in diaspora so long that they had kept little physical connection with that land which was now occupied mostly by Palestinians.
Fun fact: A plan was hatched to allocate a portion of Australia instead
Not really, it was started before the Holocaust, and it involved actual Nazis. See, antisemites are often quite happy with Zionism because they like the idea of an ethnostate that they can ship all the Jews off to. That's why pre-WWII German Zionists were able to negotiate the Haavara Agreement, which allowed them to transfer their property to Palestine, and allowed 60,000 Jews to migrate there before WWII.
Can we not act like this?
If someone is misinformed then you educate and correct them, not mock them. Especially when the person in question is clearly open minded and willing to learn.
And yet the people who run Israel are all Jewish. So it's certainly fair to criticize them for committing atrocities like ones that that were done to their people in the past. The Israeli government, not Jews in general.
(Israel \ Non-Jewish Israelis) ⊂ Jews
There, in precise mathematical notation. Yes, that's actually a tautology, but we all know the Arab Israelis and similar aren't in the drivers seat of anything.
As a woodworker I am compelled to point out that milled lumber is available in much larger nominal dimensions than 2x4. There's no need to limit yourself.
What about a 4 inch thick whole trunk bark on slab like they make those ridiculous trendy "river tables" out of?
"They" in this context clearly means "Jews".
Can we please stop with this shit? This is why the pro-Palestine side of this conflict keeps being branded as antisemites. Because you can't seem to help yourself but to make arguments where "Israel" and "Jews" are interchangeable terms.
They aren't. Jews were victims of the Holocaust. Israel was not. If you can't tell the difference, leave the activism to the people who can.
"They" in this context clearly means "the government of Israel", which is made up of Jews. It's not "all Jews" it's "these specific people in power who are also Jews". You could use this same bullshit claim to say that criticizing the US government is anti-Christian. No, it's not.
I'm sorry, the Israeli government was a victim of genocide? When? From whom?
EDIT: Let's try that on for size, quoting the words I'm criticizing.
[The Israeli government] have become the very genocidal monster that [the Israeli government] was once the victim of.
Makes no fucking sense. Nobody has ever genocided Israelis.
You know that though, because you said:
which is made up of Jews.
Then you have made the target of your hatred quite clear. It's Jews that you hate.
Instead of countering my argument, you are engaging in pedantry. You know exactly what I meant.
But for the pedants, I’ll rephrase my original statement:
FUCK ISRAEL RIGHT IN THE ASS WITH A 2x4.
The Israeli government, themselves descendants of survivors of one of the most horrific genocidal events in human history, have chosen to become perpetrators of genocide.
FUCK ISRAEL.
Sigh. The first "they" is the Israeli government, the second is Jews in general. The first "they" refers to who is committing atrocities, the second is referring to who has been the victim of atrocities historically. It's either bad faith or obtuse of you to try to interpret it any other way.
I hate the people in the Israeli government who are committing genocide. They happen to be Jews, which means that you would think they'd try to be better based on the history of atrocities being committed against them.
Look, this sentence only makes sense if both "theys" are the same group of people.
It's really not that hard to avoid blaming Jews for Israel's war crimes.
You can either acknowledge that this is a bad argument, or you can double down on blaming Jews. What's it going to be?
Look, this sentence only makes sense if both “theys” are the same group of people.
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt, against my better judgement.
"The Israeli government has become the very genocidal monster that Jews were once the victims of."
What about this sentence doesn't make sense to you? And why do you insist on seeing antisemitism in it?
Because the statement, as you present it, is more nuanced that what I usually hear people say. It isn't the statement I originally responded to either, it's the rewritten version you're demanding I respond to, only after you redefined the "theys" to something that isn't so obvious antisementic. It's also kinda meaningless to say "The Israeli government has become the very genocidal monster that Jews were once the victims of." written as it is, it it only serves as an attempt to compare Israel to Nazis, which isn't off-base, but is also better communicated than this.
My issue is with what people typically mean whey they say this. 99.9% of the time, people are saying "Jews were genocided by Nazis, and now they're genociding Palestinians". I understand the sentiment, and why people would jump to this "the oppressed has become the oppressor" rhetoric, but this isn't an appropriate statement. Jews aren't attacking Gaza and its people - Israel is.
Sure, the majority of Israel's leadership is ethnically Jewish, but that's not a reason to blame Jews for what Israel is doing. There are countless Jews that are not Israeli, do not work for the Israeli state, and do not support what Israel is doing. Directing blame at an entire ethnic group because of what a foreign military is doing is overtly bigoted.
My issue isn't about you, it is about the consistent anti-Israel rhetoric that fails to separate Israel from the Jewish people. You may consider your criticisms of Israel to be logical and rational, with clarity of target, so it's probably pretty easy for you to handwaved these things away. But Jews know when people are talking about them, and the original comment I responded to was blaming Jews for what Israel is doing to Gaza.
Just because I'm anti-Israel doesn't mean I'm turning a blind eye to Jew-hate. Downvote me all you want, downvotes aren't anonymous here, and Antisemites deserve to be on a list when they make clear what they stand for.
I know exactly what I said. I said Israel, as in the state of.
As a state is composed of the members of its government, I used the plural pronoun “they.”
Get off of your horse.
Okay, so what group committed genocide against Israel? If that's what the "they" means, who was it?
Because the Holocaust ended 3 years before Israel existed, so unless the "they" is "Jews", I wanna know what genocide you were referring to.
Weird just a few days earlier they said Spain should look to the time of Muslim rule in southern Spain for atrocities against Jews. Which there weren't Jewish people and culture prospered under the Muslim rule and then got pogromed when the Christians took back over. Now they refer to exactly that.
It is weird that Israel is hellbent not only on revisionism for its own history, but other peoples history too. Or rather it is pretty straight forward as Israel is a fascist colonial entity and shares its interest in revisionism with the Nazis and other colonial genociders.
Which there weren’t Jewish people and culture prospered under the Muslim rule and then got pogromed when the Christians took back over.
It's incredibly difficult to overstate how damn correct you are.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain
7-8 centuries of Muslim rule, and Jews become renowned as artisans and philosophers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Jews_from_Spain
The Catholic kings finish conquering the last bastion of Muslims in Iberia, and immediately next they tell all Muslims and Jews to either convert to Christianity or to flee the peninsula, because they aren't going to like what's planned for them next. A very different ruler in Europe welcomed them, however:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire
Basically, the Turks managed to help Constantinople regain some of the economic importance it had gained during the centuries of collapse of the Byzantine Empire because they welcomed Jewish artisans that had been kicked out of Iberia.
lol there were plenty of colonialist genociders before the US. The British empire, the Roman Empire, etc.
You complete lack of knowledge of the British empire is hilarious in the context of a discussion on colonialism.
the United States when talking about colonial genociders considering it's the OG
The OG huh?
What’s OG mean you inveterate cunt?
What came before the US you dense motherfucker?
The US isn't the original coloniser. Ghengis Khan did a bloody good job 900 years ago. Alexander the Great was Over 2000 years ago. The US is just shy of 250 years old. So how the fuck is the US the OG (Original gangster)...
I guess your history knowledge is pretty pethetic.. Either that or you don't know what the terms you're using means
Navajo weren't the original genocide, it also wasn't one of the biggest, History doesn't begin when the US was founded.
Albigensian Crusade (Cathar genocide) where they killed 1 000 000 people was back in the year 1209, it is one of the first documented genocides.
Enraging yourself because you don't have the mental capacity is hilarious. History didn't start 250 years ago with the US. If you had a proper well-rounded education you might understand that.
I suggest you go read a book within your ability. Try "Spot the dog goes to school". It.might be a little advanced for you but you can lift the flaps.
israel has become the very definition of a rogue nation.
...exactly what the us wants from its middle east attack dog.
How dare they threaten one of the few democracies in the Iberian Peninsula! Spain has a right to defend itself.
I guess I didn’t see why you thought to mention it. It’s fair to say that all of the peninsula is a democracy, unless you’re from Cataluña.