https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2024/05/the-palestinian-activists-fighting-for-lgbtq-rights-against-a-neverending-backdrop-of-war/
And? So is where I grew up in the southern US. There are states I can’t legally visit anymore if I want to piss in a public restroom. That doesn’t mean I’m okay with bombing most of the hospitals, schools, and homes there and killing tens of thousands of civilians. Anyone OK with that because they’re bigoted in some way has a fucking moral deficiency.
This doesn't make any sense - if anything it's backwards. being oppressed doesn't give anyone a free pass to oppress others. That kind of twisted logic is what Israel uses to get away with murder.
Fun fact, you can’t find anywhere in my comment that says “being oppressed makes oppressing others okay” because that’s not what it says. It says that parents potentially being bigoted isn’t an excuse to blow up their fucking children.
I’ve yet to have anyone give me a satisfactory explanation for why Palestinian kids deserve to have their limbs blown off or killed for living in an area hostile to LGBT people, but the people I grew up with who are equally hostile to LGBT people don’t deserve to have their kids’ limbs blown off or killed. If the answer is “American children are simply worth more than Palestinian children” then they should just come out and say it, but all I ever get is bleating about the same shit I already addressed.
I’ve yet to have anyone give me a satisfactory explanation for why Palestinian kids deserve to have their limbs blown off or killed for living in an area hostile to LGBT people
Is anyone actually saying this? What I usually see, like "queers for Palestine" is the opposite — people who excuse the extreme homophobia and misogyny in Islamic countries.
You are in a thread that started with a 1 day old account JAQing off about how transphobic Palestine is on a post about Palestinians campaigning for LGBT rights. If you don’t see that the purpose of that comment is to legitimize violence against Palestine I can’t help you.
If that's the case then OP is an enormous jackass. That still doesn't change the fact that queer Palestinians are absolutely being oppressed in their country (or what should be a country) and this is too often swept under the rug.
Most of the southern US won't stone you or murder you in broad daylight though. What's happening in Palestine and Israel is fucked up, but it doesn't give a pass to the shit they do to the LGTBQ+ and women over there.
Most of the southern US won't stone you or murder you in broad daylight though.
Since October 1st 2023, 20 trans people in the US are known to have died from violence. Almost half of them died in the south (as defined by the US census). Are trans people in the south any safer for it happening under cover of night? Pretending for a moment none of them were killed in broad daylight (some were).
Again, nobody is saying it excuses bigotry. Only a fucking idiot thinks bombing hospitals, schools, and civilians is going to somehow improve the lives of LGBT Palestinians (who everyone somehow neglects to give a shit about in these conversations except as a cudgel against western LGBT people).
Since October 1st 2023, 20 trans people in the US are known to have died from violence. Almost half of them died in the south (as defined by the US census). Are trans people in the south any safer for it happening under cover of night?
Yes, trans people in the US are safer than in Palestine. Jesus Christ.
::: spoiler spoiler
Violence against LGBTQI+ Persons: There were reported cases of violence,
criminalization, or abuse based on sexual orientation and gender identity in the
West Bank. OHCHR and NGOs reported Hamas security forces in Gaza harassed
and detained persons due to their sexual orientation or gender identity. Both noted,
however, that such cases were rarely reported, especially in Gaza, because of
concerns about protecting the safety those involved.
OHCHR observers reported PA security officers harassedand sometimes arrested
individuals due to their sexual orientation or gender identity. LGBTQI+
individuals were also victims of targeted hate crimes and violent acts. Media
reported that Ahmed Abu Markhiya, a gay Palestinian, was killed by decapitation
in Hebron on October 5. Abu Markhiya had been residing in Israel for several
years under a humanitarian permit reportedly because of death threats he received
while living in the West Bankand was awaiting approval of an asylum application
to Canada, according to media reports. Palestinian police made an arrest and
continued an investigation intothe killing.
Media reported that lesbians in the West Bank and Gaza concealed their sexual
orientation due to fear they would be killed by their families.
The PA failed to protect members of the LGBTQI+ community. After an attack on
members of the community at the Al Mustawde restaurant earlier in the year, the
PA did not make any attempts to hold the culprits accountable for their action.
Discrimination: The PA does not provide protection for or prohibit
discrimination against the LGBTQI+ community. Homosexuality is widely
considered to be taboo in areas under PA control and in Gaza.
Activities associated with the LGBTQI+ community were met with strong
opposition, and the Palestinian police often acted to prevent these activities. As a
result of this and other discriminatory conduct, the LGBTQI+ community in the
West Bank was driven underground and had no vocal representatives or NGOs
willing to speak in the West Bank, according to observers. Similarly, in Gaza,
according to observers, there was no visible LGBTQI+ community. Observers
reported that human rights organizations in Gaza did not monitor and refused to
address LGBTQ+ issues.
Availability of Legal Gender Recognition: There is no legal method for
correcting gender markers on identity documents.
Involuntary or Coercive Medical or Psychological Practices Specifically
Targeting LGBTQI+ Individuals: According to media reports, family members
of LGBTQI+ individuals subjected them to involuntary or coercive medical,
psychological, and religious practices throughout the West Bank and Gaza. Media
reported that a Palestinian man confronted his son, age 18, after finding messages
on the son’s mobile phone between him and another young man suggesting a
same-sex relationship. The son claimed his father attacked him, beat him, and
renounced him. The father forced him to meet with a cleric weekly until he
attempted unsuccessfully to kill himself, according to the report.
Restrictions of Freedom of Expression, Association, or Peaceful Assembly:
The PA in cases limited freedom of expression, association, and peaceful
assembly, although not explicitly based on sexual orientation or identity, and it
tolerated such actions by vigilantes and armed militias. During the year, in the
West Bank, peaceful assemblies and gatherings attended by LGBTQI+ individuals
were disrupted. For example, the Warehouse (event space) in Ramallah was
closed after a campaign of incitement, hate speech, and assault, which followed a
June 17 attack on the venue and cancellation of a musical performance because the
artist was “gay.” According to media reports, the attackers circulated a video on
social media and, following the violent attack, targeted the performance space with
an incitement campaign based on a false account of the events and the place.
According to media, approximately 200,000 social media users participated,
leaving thousands of hate-filled comments and incitement to murder (see 2.a.,
Academic Freedom and Cultural Events).
:::
So 20 from hate crimes? Or just 20 from all violence? Because those who are found out to be LGBTQ+ in the middle east, are killed because they're LGBTQ+, and often in very violent ways.
Some states don’t even have LGBT hate crime legislation, and until recently (like, last year) multiple southern states didn’t. There’s no federal requirement for states to report the number of LGBT hate crimes that happen yearly. So until that change there is no concise way of answering both how many trans people died from general violence and how many from hate crimes. But anyone who thinks the answer to that is zero isn’t paying attention.
I’m also not sure that the trans people murdered in the US get any solace from ‘only’ being shot or stabbed, or that the distinction helps anyone LGBT in the US or Palestine who is hate crimed.
Again, comparing the southern USA to anywhere in the middle east or northern Africa is being naive.
Could the USA do better on LGBTQ rights? Absolutely. But let's stop pretending they're anywhere near the way the middle east handles LGBTQ+ rights.
They obviously aren’t the same. Anyone denying that the south is dangerous for LGBT people (trans people particularly) is just fucking stupid.
I think everyone even Arabs agree that the majority of people is homophobic/transphobic. Fine.
But please state a source for people in Palestine being stoned, like at all, no matter the reason. What kind of place do you think Palestine is?
https://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=81112&page=1
You're joking right? There are literal laws all over the middle east in Islamic run nations about stoning people, just type stoning and middle east(ps this doesnt exclude Israel, they've arrested their own who have done it) into Google and you're going to get a ton of results. Why is this shocking? Sharia law has it as a form of punishment.
In recent times, stoning has been a legal or customary punishment in Iran, United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Mauritania, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Yemen, northern Nigeria, Afghanistan, Brunei, and tribal parts of Pakistan, including northwest Kurram Valley and the northwest Khwezai-Baezai region though it is rarely carried out.[1][2][3][4] In some of these countries, including Afghanistan, it has been carried out extrajudicially by militants, tribal leaders, and others.[2] In some other countries, including Nigeria and Pakistan, although stoning is a legal form of punishment, it has never been legally carried out. Stoning is condemned by human rights organizations.
There is a huge fucking difference between a hate crime and stoning as legal punishment.
They weren't stoned for being lgbtq though is the point. Israel is also homophobic and transphobic. It's a common tactic by the IDF to kidnap and record gay people having sex so that they can blackmail them into becoming informants. I guess all of Israel all Jewish people are homophobic then? That is the logic you use. The logic of a racist.
Not joking at all. Don’t show me a Wikipedia article, show me a newspaper article about someone being stoned in Palestine.
Hamas doesn't really do stonings, so you appear to be correct. It looks like just about every execution committed by Hamas involved a firing squad, most often performed in public.
Hamas does torture and execute people for suspicion of being gay, though, even their own commanders.
Free Palestine. Fuck the IDF and Hamas.
Yeah that was my point. It’s not that Arab societies are like super progressive and Palestinian people are suddenly angels just because they are victims of genocide. It’s just that doing stonings is an archaic practice that doesn’t exist in the Levant. Like people might be very conservative and live in authoritarian societies, but they still live in the 21st century and they don’t want that shit.
That being said Hamas absolutely sucks, they are violent, corrupt dictators and while they currently are the biggest armed resistance against the ongoing colonization they shouldn’t have any place in a free Palestine.
So we’re talking about stoning people that’s allegedly happening due to violations of sharia law and you bring up a story from 2001 so probably during the second intifada about an incident involving illegal Israeli settlers.
I wanted to assume that you maybe just don’t know better but this is just bad faith from your side.
The middle east in general, and subsaharan Africa, are by far the most homophobic regions on Earth: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/06/25/global-divide-on-homosexuality-persists/
Lots of people all around the world are transphobic as fuck. That doesn't mean I want them and their children to get bombed or starved to death.
It is, and that's when a discussion about Muslim nations gets very real.
They still don't deserve their treatment. But I think most people would prefer to live in a culture similar to Israel's over one similar to Iran's.
So are you saying that Orthodox Jews and conservative Christians aren’t transphobic, or that we should go Gaza on Texas?
There are LGBTQ people in Palestine, do you think Israel's bombs don't kill them too?
Because my basic humanity requires me to care about theirs, even if they don't care about mine.
Do Americans hate us? The only people I’ve been verbally and physically assaulted by have been Americans.
Have you ever spent time in a middle eastern country and been visibly "out"? (I'm assuming you're saying this in reference to existing somewhere on the lgbtq spectrum)
If the answer is no, but you have spent time in America, then I think this is a strange comment.
I have. Did aid work in the region. More than once actually. I'm gay as fuck. People welcomed me as much as the rest of the group. They were some of the kindest people I've met. People aren't a monolith. I'm sure there were shitty people there too, just like there are shitty people in the west. People hate me and essentialize me everywhere. How does it make sense for me to do the same?
I could have very well have had a negative experience too btw. But if I did, I still wouldn't condemn and entire people to die because of it. I'm not a coward.
I’ve never been out in Russia, but I know we’re persecuted there. Same for Poland. I’ve never been out in Uganda (I haven’t been there yet), and although I’ve been to India the social circles I moved in meant I didn’t encounter anything like what the community members find there.
What I find curious is that Americans use this as a lash particularly against Islam, while at the same time a large part of their population not only supports LGBT-phobic legislation in the US, but also the evangelical community that actively lobbies for the death penalty for being LGBT in Africa. I can sympathize with the plight of Russians under the violent and murderous dictatorship of Putin without saying that the average Russian is correct on their opinion about the LGBT community. If Russia were to invade Uganda and kill 50k civilians, there would be an outcry against it and anyone who said “But they hate The Gays” would hopefully be ushered peacefully out of the room, as the two are orthogonal.
Is Israel killing 40-50k people to secure gay rights in Gaza? Or have they been supporting Hamas because it allowed them to avoid a two state solution?
Trust me - we are not strangers to the idea that other oppressed communities have parts that are still prejudiced against us. That neither justifies genocide nor does it relieve us as individuals from acknowledging such extreme moral wrongdoing. If an unarmed person shot by police turned out to have opposed marriage equality, that doesn’t excuse the moral requirement to oppose that action.
So unless you think that anti-LGBT legislation and violence justifies terrorist activity including the slaughter of civilians within the US (it does not), I respectfully suggest you review your premises.
To be clear, what I said was "I think that's a strange comment" to someone saying "Americans want to kill me" in comparison to those in the Middle East.
If you read that back carefully, you might notice that I was careful not to say "I support the systematic and brutal murder of millions of people" - that's because, like any sane person, I see that what Israel are doing is abhorrent. I never argued or insinuated that lgbtq people should support the genocide of bigots, but again for the sake of clarity my position is that only a literal insane person could think that. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
So, with that said, your post that I responded to seems to imply that you think Americans (in general) hate you in the same way that many in the middle east hate you. To me, that is an incredibly naive view, and a very strange thing for someone who's never lived there to make.
I think that it's possible to condemn elements of a culture, in an honest way ie. that the Islamic attitude to LGB is worse than that in western countries, however bad western countries often are (for some reason I think there's sometimes less hate for the T in Islamic culture) but pull short of supporting the worst elements of western culture (like islamophobia) and absolutely without endorsing literal war crimes.
I live in Texas and I support this message. Jk. Kinda... Idk, some of us just really really suck...
Not sure about trans acceptance in particular but judged by Arab standards Palestinians are generally right-out progressive. More in the "don't ask, don't tell" stage with the occasional threat by fundies.
...and that all of course is West Bank. Gaza under Hamas rule is a completely different topic as Hamas are fundies.
How come do you think South Africa was one of the first countries to legalize marriage equality? Solidarity is how we do away with hate.
Go watch Pride. 2014 British movie. Will make you cry.
Edit, fuck I went and watched the ending again and I'm crying.
Why is this relevant? The article is about Palestinian activists fighting for LGBT rights for Palestine. Yes the rights of LGBT people in Palestine are not great .... But that's literally what this article is about, Palestinians fighting to make it better
So is the US and Canada and the UK. Should I wish for those countries to be genocided too?
The more we keep killing them the faster they will realize they must be the violent barbarians that should adopt our culture.
That's how this works right?
Biden was born 40 years before aids happened. He's doing good not to be grabbing em by the pussy like the rest of his generation. You want a real human, ... yeah that's just never gonna be an option sorry
Omw to adopt this line of thinking uncritically to argue that 9/11 was entirely justified and should happen again once a week throughout every republican state in the US because some of the victims would probably happen to be transphobic.
America's transphobic as fuck though, why should I give a shit that 3,000 transphobic Americans died on September 11th? tbh, I'm glad that there's 3,000 less transphobes in the world actually
You're the one unironically saying this about Palestinians being murdered by psychotic IDF fascists because they might be transphobic, not me
You can't really say that the people who died on 9/11 were or were not transphobic though.
yeah you're gonna want to mark your sarcasm since you're not doing a very good job actually communicating it with words
My dear boy, the answer is of fucking course it is, because everywhere in the world is
there is no gaytopia. best you're gonna find is the gay village! But I mean, they do alright there.
Israel is probably the nr. 1 murderer of trans people in the world right now. Get your priorities straight.
How is it a lie? Gaza is probably the most dangerous place in the world. If you kill 40 000 people a couple of thousand of those are going to be lgbtq. God you people are dumb.
Edit: Also I like the inherit racism in thinking Palestinians can't be lgbtq and also claiming, without fact that they're transphobic. Hamas is transphobic. Palestinians are an entire group of people.
This is like saying that Ukraine is slaughtering LGBTQ+ people because they've killed nearly 1/2 a million russian soldiers. On top of that, you're acting like the reason Israel has targeted them is because they're LGBTQ+. You don't label a civilian death as a hate crime just because they're a certain race or gender. So no you're statement is blatantly false.
Palestine is not a race, and Islam is %100 transphobic and the main religion practiced there (98% of the population).
Copying this from a previous comment as it's basically the same ignorance so I don't care enough about changing the context.
Just ignore the fact Christians are doing the same thing. It's not an Islamic issue. It's a conservative issue. Muslims in America are predominantly left leaning and their views reflect it. I'm more worried about Christians in America trying to kill me than Muslims. They are more accepting of me here than Christians. My local mosque has a big trans rights flag in protest of our local politicians, and guess who were the ones to get upset about that. I'll give you a hint. It wasn't the people who were worshiping under the trans rights flag.
As a subject of hate born from essentialization, it's bad. Don't do it. Regardless of who you're essentializing. Systemic oppression can only happen with underlying dehumanization that comes from this thinking. Before you say "what about Nazis?", still no. It removes responsibility from them. That was the immediate and obvious excuse the people under Nazi Germany used to absolve themselves when the war ended. It was what was used to excuse the people brought to Western nations under programs like paper clip. They are people. They are just like you. You are capable of becoming just like them. Unless you're willing to accept that, you're much more susceptible to becoming like them.
Copying this from a previous comment as it's basically the same ignorance so I don't care enough about changing the context.
Just ignore the fact Christians are doing the same thing. It's not an Islamic issue. It's a conservative issue.
Not arguing that, there isn't anywhere in this entire thread that I have done so. I've just been pointing out that the middle east and islam is hostile towards LGBT persons. And everyone here seems to think that's not the case.
Muslims in America are predominantly left leaning and their views reflect it.
Muslims are not significantly more likely than all Americans to identify as liberal (30% vs. 28%); however, a greater share of Muslims describe themselves as politically moderate (39% vs. 32% of all U.S. adults).
Muslims vote Democrat mainly because dems aren't trying to constantly glass the middle east... wondering how that'll look now that biden continues to feed the Israelis bombs, so they can continue the genocide.
I'm more worried about Christians in America trying to kill me than Muslims.
In the USA? Sure, more people here are christians, but don't think that if Islam was given the chance at running the usa that you'd be better off somehow.
They are more accepting of me here than Christians. My local mosque has a big trans rights flag in protest of our local politicians, and guess who were the ones to get upset about that. I'll give you a hint. It wasn't the people who were worshiping under the trans rights flag.
Not saying there aren't tolerant Muslims, never have.
As a subject of hate born from essentialization, it's bad. Don't do it. Regardless of who you're essentializing.
Intolerance of the intolerant I believe is what is preached around here.
Systemic oppression can only happen with underlying dehumanization that comes from this thinking.
%100 agree
Before you say "what about Nazis?", still no. It removes responsibility from them. That was the immediate and obvious excuse the people under Nazi Germany used to absolve themselves when the war ended. It was what was used to excuse the people brought to Western nations under programs like paper clip. They are people. They are just like you. You are capable of becoming just like them. Unless you're willing to accept that, you're much more susceptible to becoming like them.
I'm not someone who believes that you should be tolerant of those who actively are trying to remove the rights and lives of others based off of their skin color, gender or sexual orientation.
What Israel is doing is fucked, we should have stopped funding their damn military decades ago.
What hamas and other jihadist are doing to people (women and LGBT persons mainly) in the middle east is also fucked.
Both things can be true. Not everything is black and white. It's like we have lost all nuance in discussions these days.
Nah you're just a racist. Where is the evidence that that 98% of Islam is transphobic? The majority of Muslim people I know are pro-lgbtq, but I guess you would actually need to talk to Muslim people to know that and since you view them as beneath you I can see how that would be hard. It's like saying all of Christianity is transphobic and that everyone who lives in red-states in the US is as well.
The Ukraine situation is entirely different. To compare the two is insane. If Ukraine murdered civilians of a specific ethnicity indiscriminately en masse, with the majority being children, I think pointing out that some of the people that they are murdering is lgbtq in response to people claiming that we should kill them or not care if they die is legitimate. This is also a popular Zionist talking point to justify their genocide and it's so fucked up that idiots like you fall for it. It's understandable that people who care about lgbtq-people would care about seeing people who are like them being murdered by Israel.
Also are you pulling the "I'm not a racist because Islam is not a race" card?
Nah you're just a racist.
This is "I don't like what the facts say so you're a racist card" fuck off with that shit.
Where is the evidence that that 98% of Islam is transphobic?
Reading comprehension isn't your stong suite is it? I said that Islam is a trans/homophobic religion and that 98% of Palestinians practice Islam.
The majority of Muslim people I know are pro-lgbtq, but I guess you would actually need to talk to Muslim people to know that and since you view them as beneath you I can see how that would be hard. It's like saying all of Christianity is transphobic and that everyone who lives in red-states in the US is as well.
https://www.equaldex.com/equality-index?region=Middle+East
You really need to understand something, Islam and LGBT rights are not friends. The middle east is a dangerous and violent place for LGBT persons. This is not some made up stat. It's a fact. Get your head out of the sand and actually do some damn research for once.
The Ukraine situation is entirely different. To compare the two is insane. If Ukraine murdered civilians of a specific ethnicity indiscriminately en masse, with the majority being children, I think pointing out that some of the people that they are murdering is lgbtq in response to people claiming that we should kill them or not care if they die is legitimate. This is also a popular Zionist talking point to justify their genocide and it's so fucked up that idiots like you fall for it. It's understandable that people who care about lgbtq-people would care about seeing people who are like them being murdered by Israel.
You literally called what Israel is doing as murdering LGBTQ persons, because they're bombing indiscriminately...hence the comparison, but since you're incapable of understanding that, you toss out insults and personal attacks.
Also are you pulling the "I'm not a racist because Islam is not a race" card?
Says the guy who backed up his facts with "I know Muslim people "...this is the same white privilege bullshit of "I have black friends"...you couldn't come off more white privilege if you tried.
https://hexbear.net/post/2481767 Enjoy being put on display, too bad they deleted it. I know it's really difficult for you to understand but because a place has anti-lgbtq laws doesn't mean everyone who live there or everyone who practices the religion of that country is homophobic or transphobic. This is like really basic stuff but I can understand it can be hard for a racists to understand. It's like saying all of the people who live in red-states in the US are transphobic because the anti-trans laws there. It doesn't mean everyone is and it doesn't mean everyone who lives there is transphobic. Displaying entire diverse groups of people as being a certain way, especially to justify their genocide, is actually kind of the definition of racism.
Also if a racist claims all black people are a certain way and I say "I know black people who aren't that way" it's not the same as saying "I have a black friend" to claim you are not racist. It's kind of the opposite actually. The fact you don't understand that proves how dumb you are.
If Ukraine murdered civilians of a specific ethnicity indiscriminately
Not so hypothetical.
There are some folks who can't comprehend the mentality of:
"They hate us so they don't deserve to die"
Wow, get out of your tribalistic hole
Hamas would love nothing more than to stabilize the country of Palestine, and then resume systematically throwing gay and trans people off roofs of buildings. "Queers for Palestine" protestors are all hopeful morons.
Who do you think was elected to run the governance of Gaza and Palestine before Israel plowed through?
Anyone under 36 wasn’t even eligible to vote the last time Palestine had parliamentary elections. Holding people responsible for elections that happened before they could vote or before they were even born is absolutely deranged.
Anyone under 36 wasn’t even eligible to vote the last time Palestine had parliamentary elections.
I'd be willing to wager that an unusually large portion of the population falls into that category as well. Anyone have any statistics about the demographics of Palestine? Oh, their annual census is out of date? You don't say.
I believe 40% is under the age of 15. So, during the last vote, 40% were, at most, around -3 at the time. I don't they were.........
Funny how most who argue in favor of Israel use assumptions and knee-jerk reactions while most who don't cite statistics and most uncharitably, regurgitate real historical events. Publicly aired discussions on the matter are sleep parody. On one side you have the world's top holocaust scholars and journalists who have covered the region for years, if not decades and on the other you have talking heads and maybe a twitch streamer or internet personality. Then they make the implication that both sides are equally qualified to speak on the matter. I'm convinced the likes of Pierce Morgan are actually pro-Palestine figures with how bad they make their side look. If I didn't know better, I'd have to think there isn't many credible arguments you can make in defense of Israel or something
Did anyone here read the article? Two paragraphs are about Queers for Palestine. The rest is about actual Palestinians trying to fight for LGBT rights. So many people here trying to dunk on how dumb it is to fight for this when it's the people actually over there fighting for their rights. Are you saying that shouldn't happen?
Yeah but if we pretend that Palestine is secretly full of progressive snd peace-loving people then we don't need to deal with the complexity of reality and can just blame Isreal for everything!