https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/29/us/politics/biden-chinese-electric-vehicles.html
The president ordered an investigation into auto technology that could track U.S. drivers, part of a broader effort to stop E.V. and other smart-car imports from China.
This is something that bothers me. I see EVs as future and a next step in car evolution, but why all of them have to be connected? Why most people don't have problem with it? I'm not talking about Chinese cars, but all of them.
20 years ago if you would say a car could be hacked one would laugh and say that this only happens in sci-fi movies, now this is a reality. And that's not the only threat, there's a huge implication with privacy. Why people are so not caring about it?
Because it is easy.
That is it. It is easy and cheap to make cars connected because of abysmal lack of regulation and the massive IoT chip industry
Integrating wireless radios into products is standard by now and chips required to do anything but 5g are extremely cheap. GPS is also dirt cheap. The biggest costs by far are design hours and certification.
Then they can make money because of the software "features" that only take man hours to develop as well as sell your tracking days after the fact. Together with the fact that if the market says that most people want those convenience features and couldn't care less about their valuable data as we have seen through every tech industry, there is little reason NOT to put in those features, especially when it enables OTA car firmware updates also.
So true, it's either buy a car which steals all of your data or don't buy a car at all. Which isn't really a choice for most of us
They don't "all" have to be connected, the vast majority of available global models aren't (IE a lot of the affordable Indian/Chinese models).
The vast majority of models sold in the USA are IE Tesla. More affordable models like the Renault Zoe afaik aren't but I'm not sure how accessible these are in the USA. I'm not sure about the Chevvy Volt tbh.. Consumers can purchase to buy a non-connected vehicle.
Out of the EVs I have I mostly use the one that is connected so I can do automations to turn on climate control etc. Connectivity is a convenience/safety thing for me and I assume others...
The people that do care the most have a choice to use older cars and that reduces resistance now.
Obviously the whole security threat thing is just BS to justify restricting trade. You’re really not allowed to restrict trade under wto rules unless it’s a national security concern. It makes sense that the US would want to protect its industry but, it’s really infuriating that the US, the country that thrust neoliberalism free trade policies down developing countries throats, sometimes by force, now wants to do protectionism. Many developing economies growth was hampered and their economic ability to met their own needs to spiked into the ground by American coercion and sometimes violence. It further goes to show that the powerful countries really just do whatever the fuck they want often at the detriment of weaker nations.
They did the same to Huawei and lots followed. This has nothing to do with security and all to do with preventing China's leap ahead of US as a global economic technology powerhouse
It does have something to do with security.
For Huawei, the USA was concerned that China could build in backdoors to its communication technology similar to how the USA probably does with its local technology.
For EV, it is becoming apparent that battery and microchip technology has the same wartime industry power that oil and steel has, so the USA doesn't want to completely give up on those industries.
Everything has something to do with security if you're paranoid/creative enough. It's a useless thought.
For Huawei , if that's the case why did US not target all Chinese manufacturers and only the one that, at the time, was becoming the most technologically competitive one.
As for EV the argument regarding takeover as a wartime industry whilst maybe true not it still smacks of US protectionist practice rather than a genuine security fear.
It’s not Huawei’s fault that outdated IP restrictions in the west put western companies at a disadvantage and slow innovation.
Hahahaha that's quite the euphemism for stealing everything they could get their grubby capitalist hands on
What do you imagine China is going to do to you from the other side of the world? Feed you targeted ads? Attack you with Havana Syndrome or turn you into a Manchurian Candidate via 5G?
The thing that benefits China and only China is good for the rest of the world?
I disagree but ok
I think people are misunderstanding my comment. I don’t trust either, but I’m worried about one more than the other given national interests and where I live.
It seems like the "cars tracking you" problem is a very real and very serious thing that should obviously be legislated separately of electric vehicles or country of manufacture.
I got a Mazda recently, and I was reading all the ownership paperwork, and the guy asked me what I was looking for. I said "I'm looking for the language about what data Mazda is collecting about me." And the guy laughed and said there's nothing in the paperwork about that. They just do it. You can't shut it off.
Question: Who is paying for all these 5G Cell connections that 'every car has'? How is my data getting from my car in my garage to (Brand name)?
I sure as shit am not giving my car my wifi password.
Is my Android phoning home? How does it know who to phone home to?
Car manufacturers are. They probably get a bulk discount on relatively cheap data plans. It was enough for GM to keep OnStar running until Verizon got rid of supporting all 2G and 3G service in the USA.
Do we know how long they are paying for that connection?
I can't imagine that's cheap. Is a 2016 car internet connected without my notice? How do you confirm?
No, but the Wikipedia article seems to indicate that OnStar has the ability to store GPS and phone contact information even if you aren't subscribed.
Also, I can't imagine that buying several millions of data connections would be that expensive, especially if all that those connections are doing are sending out a ping of reports once a month.
Amazon did a thing where if your wifi is down Alexa can connect to a neighbors Alexa which will relay the message to the server.
I imagine a car could do the same much easier, you pull up to the lights next to a car from the same manufacturer and it relays all your telemetrics.
It's time for an open source car.
So now I’m wondering what happens with new (or connected used) cars sold in California. Does CCPA have any teeth here?
Yeah fair I am sure there is almost as much sketchy shit in Chinese electric cars as American ones, I just can’t find the fucks to care compared to the threat of ecological and agricultural collapse from climate change.
Like seriously I know it’s more satisfying and intriguing to talk security, technology, software and geopolitics but really who gives a fuck. Literally none of this even remotely matters next to the existential emergency that is climate change.
So sure, cheap Chinese electric cars lets go who cares honestly, we don’t have the damn time to focus on making this into a Cold War Tom Clancy novel before we run out of shit like clean water to drink.
If you care about climate change, then you would be anti-car period. Biden is 100% correct here (but not for the reasons he thinks,) cars are a security threat.
Your imperial core chauvanism is showing. It is the Global North which is isolating itself.
China is deeply integrated with the Global South, which is the majority of the the world’s people, industrial capacity, and natural resources.
The Statesman: The West versus the Rest
Geopolitical Economy Report: ‘Western dominance has ended’, EU foreign-policy chief admits, warning of ‘West against the Rest’ geopolitics
Please do not use this map projection. It is unambiguously trash. It distord shapes way to much. There are much better equal area projections, like Eckert IV or mollweide
You actually believe this? Two words: Belt and Road.
Soon you’ll find out that the West is not the world and it is the one isolating itself.
American OPEC monopoly
What the hell does that even mean? The USA aren't even part of the OPEC^1^, how are they supposed to be in the "OPEC monopoly"? Or do you mean Venezuela with America? And why monopoly? OPEC/ OPEC+ are only responsible for 30-40%^2^ of crude production, that is a weird monopoly.
^1^ https://www.opec.org/opec_web/en/about_us/25.htm
The Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) was founded in Baghdad, Iraq, with the signing of an agreement in September 1960 by five countries namely Islamic Republic of Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Venezuela. They were to become the Founder Members of the Organization.
These countries were later joined by Qatar (1961), Indonesia (1962), Libya (1962), the United Arab Emirates (1967), Algeria (1969), Nigeria (1971), Ecuador (1973), Gabon (1975), Angola (2007), Equatorial Guinea (2017) and Congo (2018).
^2^ https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61188579
...Together, Opec+ countries produce about 40% of all the world's crude oil.
America controls Saudi, Kuwait, Iraq and Venezuela. Only Iran falls outside and if they start doing naughty things they are going to get invaded.
America is the largest oil producer in the entire world
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_production
Country Oil production September 2023 (bbl/day)
United States 12,900,000[8]
Russia 9,480,000[9]
Saudi Arabia (OPEC) 9,060,000[9]
Canada 4,778,973[10]
Ah, yes. America with its magic wand controlling everything and everyone! Just yesterday evening Biden made me snort three lines of coke.
Yes they kill governments that try to nationalize their oil which could drive down prices. Gadaffi in Libya is a great recent example.
America is the largest oil producer in the entire world
So, still no monopoly. Even IF we counted OPEC as "American OPEC monopoly" they together would only account for 50-60% of crude oil production. Far away from a monopoly, maybe you should read up on the term monopoly.
America controls ...
And even then, OPEC most of the time acts against US interests. Crazy how big the "control" and influence the US has over these countries and OPEC then. They have so much control that even Russia is part of OPEC+ since 2016. AMERICA STRONK!
5G, garlic, cars...
I know this may seem like an unusual concept to capitalist America, but having more competitors drives down prices.
Low prices aren't always a good thing. Especially for the working class when those low prices are on imported goods that replace the products these workers used to make. I thought we already learned that neoliberal policies aren't so hot for workers.
No one has learned anything. The people who knew outsourcing was anti-worker were proven correct, but it didn't matter.
Part of the problem with the EV market in the US right now is that the majority of models available are luxury cars in price. You can get a used Nissan leaf for ~16k, but issue with that is their driving range can be anywhere between 80-100 miles (works great for errands and daily commuting). Not even gonna mention the headache of figuring out the charging port type(seems NACS format is winning the market).
I have long maintained China is a security threat, but I am excited for the news because it will (hopefully!) push US auto makers to make more affordable models with 200+ mile range.
Agreed. But that's not limited to EVs is it. They've raised prices overall both towards the bottom, altogether dropping smaller models, increasing the sizes of others to charge more, etc. And it works. The average purchase price is currently around 50K in the US. Which is stepping into the lower end of the EV market. So what I'm saying is this isn't an EV thing. It's an auto maker price and profit maximization thing. On the bright side, it's a low margin business which means the overall amount of money that is getting extracted and not making it to workers is towards the better end of the economy. 🫢
This pure projection. America spies through everything they sell. So they assume that everyone else is doing the same.
Industry competition: a threat
Deteriorating mental condition of leadership: not a threat what was I talking about again?
Ah yes, because electric vehicles collect so much more data than your standard vehicles, they essentially are the same thing just different engine. Ever look at the data OnStar collects even apperently without an account? Ever look at the privacy policy the infotainment system has you agree to once or twice a month? it's scary.
how about just pass legislation that a foreign country cannot collect data on a vehicle in the US if we are that scared of it
The backdoors were inserted for law enforcement use into carrier equipment like base stations, antennas and switching gear, the Journal said, with US officials reportedly alleging they were designed to be accessible by Huawei.
There's a basic principle here that I think the US doesn't understand: there is no such thing as a backdoor only for one group. Any equipment with backdoors is inherently insecure. The US dug their own grave and they're blaming Huawei for selling the shovels.
"We need to reduce carbon emissions!"
"No not like that!"
Haha. It's just silly. I know nothing about the actual story.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
President Biden took steps on Thursday toward blocking internet-connected Chinese cars and trucks from entry to the American auto market, including electric vehicles, saying they posed risks to national security because their operating systems could send sensitive information to Beijing.
China has rapidly scaled up its production of electric vehicles in recent years, setting it on a collision course with Mr. Biden’s industrial policy efforts that seek to help American automakers dominate that market at home and abroad.
Administration officials are eyeing other steps to further impede imports of Chinese vehicles, which have already surged through European markets, as a result of low prices driven in part by significantly lower labor costs.
The Treasury Department has already proposed rules meant to limit China’s ability to supply materials for cars and trucks that qualify for a $7,500 electric vehicle tax credit included in Mr. Biden’s signature climate bill.
The Commerce Department investigation announced on Thursday grew from a series of conversations that administration officials had with automakers last fall, after the settlement of a United Automobile Workers strike during which Mr. Biden stood with the union and joined a picket line.
Biden aides began to grow concerned about what might happen if the United States did not impose similar restrictions on Chinese software, which administration officials say only a handful of cars in America run on today.
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