https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/ny-fraud-case-damages-pay-millions-judge-engoron-rcna135283
The former president denied any wrongdoing, calling the case "a fraud on me."
Oh and important fact:
The judge stipulated that the fines CANNOT BE PAID VIA CAMPAIGN FUNDS.
Fat Ass can't run to his useful idiots. It has to be paid via assets and company funds.
#FIRE SALE FRIDAY!
His entire campaign raised ~$330M in 2016 election cycle. At the very least it's a massive hit to the funds they have to spend.
He's going to try to stiff the court. I'd bet money on it. He's going to hide behind his lawyers and try to claim the law doesn't apply the same way to an ex president. Just to delay long enough for the election.
The real test of our democracy will be whether or not they just arrest him when he tries that.
Not possible in this case, unless appeals court stays judgement then he's only got 30 days from now to pay up, or else the government can start seizing assets.
There's already a ban on transferring assets, and his businesses will have a court appointed monitor who will have the authority to review ALL payments the company makes. Also he can't cover the payment with loans from any bank or other financial institution registered in New York, which is most of them, lmao
Uh, I don't think New York law provides for debtors' prisons anymore. Those went out of style in the 1700s.
The way a court actually handles an unpaid judgment is it just orders the seizure of any property the debtor does own. It doesn't need permission.
Worth pointing out that there's interest on it until it's paid. Currently NY interest on judgements is 9%.
DeSantis has previously stated he won't extradite the Cheeto to NY. So in event of arrest warrant he'd just stay away from NY like he already does or til he is president and he isn't able to be arrested over that.
So they seize the assets of his companies in NY and he can never do business there again. I'm sure they'd see this as an absolute win.
But does that count as actual campaign funds or campaign funds + PAC money? Because the latter is the issue. PAC money can be spent however the PAC wants on whatever the PAC wants and PACs can also be funded with donations of any size (and by anyone from any country). Thanks, SCOTUS.
He has a leadership PAC. That is where you put the explicit bribes.
He can direct the money to pay his legal bills.
This whole thing seems like what would be a slap on the wrist for those of us who aren't fabulously wealthy and powerful.
With as much as his name is in the headlines, he may not have to spend as much.
His base seems willing to prove the old adage "I don't care what they say about me in the papers, as long as they spell my name right ".
I mean, that's what Trump's financial paperwork says, so we really have absolutely no idea
I would rather he pay with campaign funds. I don't care how rich he is, I want him to fail in the 2024 election.
For real, look at this shit
"Their complete lack of contrition and remorse borders on pathological. They are accused only of inflating asset values to make more money. The documents prove this over and over again. This is a venial sin, not a mortal sin. Defendants did not commit murder or arson. They did not rob a bank at gunpoint.
"Some will rob you with a six-gun, and some with a fountain pen," really great to see how far we've come since that was written
But I digress,
Donald Trump is not Bernard Madoff. Yet, defendants are incapable of admitting the error of their ways," Engoron wrote.
"Defendants’ refusal to admit error — indeed, to continue it, according to the Independent Monitor — constrains this Court to conclude that they will engage in it going forward unless judicially restrained," he added.
The ruling also bars the Trump sons — who've been running the company since their father went to the White House — “from serving as an officer or director of any New York corporation or other legal entity in New York for a period of two years.”
So, yeah, I guess the headline was shitting you, because at best it's going to be effectively a two year ban for this pack of pathologically remorseless creeps who the judge admits are definitely going to reoffend. Ain't justice grand? /s
Yeah, I really don't think people should be celebrating this. This is practically giving people permission to cheat on their taxes considering they still came out on top in terms of profiting overall.
I definitely understand wanting to celebrate, people have been waiting for this asshole to get what's coming to him since at least 2016
But yeah, this really isn't the death blow it could/should have been
Small New York business should protest and / or sue the courts for not fairly applying justice or something. I’m not a lawyer.
That's what blows me away. It's not 3 years for being innocent, bc the judge assigned it for being GUILTY!?
Think of it like a three year ban from the NFL. In theory it's not permanent, but in practice it is.
Is it? I mean I'd prefer it if Trump didn't live to 80, but Rupert Murdoch is 92 and still clinging on to power.
I would be very surprised if they didn't have some sort of contingency plan set up for this since they knew it was a possibility.
The contingency is getting his Daughter-in-law appointed head of the RNC. She's already she'd give all RNC funds to trump.
Sure, but it's still a problem. Trump could abandon New York, but re-entering the NY market after three years would be like starting over. Probably not worth it.
Or he could turn over control to someone like Ivanka. But for it to survive, she will have to put in her own people and make new contacts of her own. After three years it will effectively be her company, nobody involved will want to see Donald return.
That was my thought. The money is a lot and cool, but we know he’ll never have to really pay it. It won’t change a thing wrt how he’s currently living his life. He could set up a GoFundMe and people would throw money at it like Bannon’s border wall scheme.
The business thing though - with our luck that fucker will still be alive in 3 years, running for president again or some shit, and open up another business in NYC just to spite this and do the fraud all over again.
I said this to someone else- I sincerely hope Donald Trump doesn't make it to next month, let alone 80, but Rupert Murdoch is 92 and still running News Corp.
I said it in 2016 and every year after yet here we are.
And even when he finally does kick the bucket, we’ll never be free of him. The conspiracy theories surrounding however he goes will make the JFK assassination ones look amateur.
He's going to end up selling off a lot of properties over this. He may even lose the tower where he has lived for decades.
That's the death of the company. Nobody in his family can run this business now. It'll continue on with someone they have hired to manage it, but the judge will keep his eye on them with the monitor for a very long time.
Why is it that people who commit fraud for less than $10,000 get jail for decades but commit fraud for millions and you only lose your ability to do business in a single state for 3 years?
I guarantee you Trump would pay way more than $300m if it meant dodging 10 years in prison.
Just because he has money (debatable) shouldn't mean he should get a pass where other people wouldn't.
Agreed, but I'm so used to see rich people never get shafted in any way that this is a pleasant surprise. Luckily for us, Trump had the bright idea to fuck over bankers instead of poor people
That's the thing, he fucked over rich people, you can fuck over all the poor people you want and it's fine, but fuck over one rich dude with the slightest pull and you're done, that's what happend to that FTX guy, he fucked over rich dudes and now he's going to jail.
I agree money shouldn't give you a pass, since that would signify that justice is determined by money.
I guarantee you Trump would pay way more than $300m if it meant dodging 10 years in prison.
If he could get the money. Considering the amount of grifting going on in the Trumpyverse just to pay some of the legal bills, I have a hard time believing that Trump would be able to come up with 300m without selling properties.
For 35 years all his funding has come from Russia. Eric said so. $300m not a problem. Kompromat.
Which he'll overvalue! Honestly, considering the trials I'm not sure who would even buy anything from him for a serious amount of money. Might have to be at fire sale prices to get people to bite.
There is a property he owns around me, and I didn't know he owned it, but the first time i saw it I literally said "oh that looks like something that Trump would own". And it was.
It's the most ugly gory looking building in the world. It looks like the sort of thing that an african dictator would build, I cannot see anyone else wanting it.
so that's nearly a HALF BILLION DOLLARS in fines owed to multiple entities by the (alleged) billionaire who is also the leading candidate to one political party.
now would be a real good time for that party to remove themselves from trump. because if they stay hitched to that wagon, they ain't winning shit. but the hilarious thing is that if they get behind haley right now they'll have an even shot at winning but she's so unappealing to the base they'll never do it.
it's great. 🤣😆🤣😆
I get denied from jobs with security clearances because I have student loans debt / financial hardships when they run background checks. The president has the ability to declassify any documents... And he has been on recording sharing classified documents with non clearanced individuals.
Security must only impact peasants
It has to be more than student debt. Like being severely delinquent. It having declared bankruptcy. Or being in such debt that you'd be at risk of bribery.
They only care about your risk to be bribed or blackmailed and that you are honest.
Never declared bankruptcy. Trump has though numerous times, so it can't be that. 85% of my debt is student loans... And nothing is delinquent. 10% car loan, 5% elsewhere. It doesn't often go the way that we think it should
Security clearance derives from Executive power in the first place. He got it by default.
Don't let him have that power again.
Yeah no way is the base going to support a woman and especially one who doesn't kiss the ring.
I think Haley hasn't been tested yet. She might be an utter disaster with the general electorate (remember DeSantis was also speculatively popular in a general election before people actually looked at him).
his base which is a very loud minority of the people aka not the person who win you elections. tell the low information voter in september and october that trump owes $88 million to one person for sexually assaulting her and lying about it and $450 million for cheating on his taxes and lying to get bank loans and don't be shocked if one of the red wall states flips in november.
Texas voting democratic because Trump had some legal decisions go against him?
Not a chance.
Just look at what happened with Ken Paxton. Indicted for securities fraud, and they still let him be AG. Fuck this state.
The issue with the low information voter is that it cuts both ways for them. Republicans just have to make Biden seem like a terrible option and those low information voters simply will not turn out to vote. Then you only have highly motivated voters turning out. That is essentially what happened in 2016. Hell, even with how terrible Trump was during his presidency, our electoral system meant that he only lost by 44k votes total across three states in 2020. If those Democrats were not motivated to go to the polls, the electoral college would have been tied and Trump would have been given the presidency. What motivated a lot of people in 2020 was hatred of Trump which was fresh on their mind. That is not the case this year. Four years have passed without him fucking so much up.
The bulk of the fines are assigned to the three Trumps, Weisselberg, etc "jointly and severally".
I have no idea what that means for their individual liability, but it's not exclusively on Trump's shoulders.
I saw here that the fines are $4 million for each of the two offspring, and $1 million for Weisselberg:
https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-set-rule-trumps-370-million-civil-fraud-case-2024-02-16
Yes those are separate line items in the judgement that apply to them individually.
They are also cited in the giant fines with the "jointly and severally" description.
What's even funnier is initially the investigators were only looking to get $250M. During the case after a monitor was appointed, the Trump Org. started shuffling money around and they went after more money due to those actions.
trump's entire 2016 presidential campaign cost $340 million.
trump's 2020 campaign more then doubled that amount to spend $774 million(which, with his loss conveniently amounted to nothing).
This judgment, coupled with prejudgment interest, amounts to over $450 million.
And being barred from conducting business in New York is one heck of a cherry on top, although like many of you, I would have liked to see a lifetime ban.
His sons are also not allowed to have any role in Trump organizations in New York for 2 years and owe four million each.
There's trumps $83 million ruling for his rape and defamation of carroll as well.
Congrats, Letitia James and judge engoron.
Can't wait for the rest of these trials to get going.
Luckily, he's already old and obese, so these three years are much more of a loss than say, being banned for 3 years at 25 years old. With any luck he won't be around much longer anyways.
These evil old bastards take longer than you think to kick the bucket. Hell, Kissinger made it to 100.
Because growing weed is a criminal offense. It probably shouldn't be, but that's how the law works.
What happened here was not a criminal case. So given the limited available punishment this is pretty severe. I mean does the idiot even have 300 million dollars?
The judge also ordered that they pay substantial interest, pushing the penalty for the former president to $450 million, according to the attorney general, Letitia James.
I can hear the donation emails and text messages getting typed up as we speak. You know them suckers are gonna pay too!
People living paycheck to paycheck donating money to a millionaire because of ideology 🥰
Guy is gonna be 81 by the time the 3 year ban lifts, it's close enough to a lifetime ban.
The kids are banned for 2 years but yeah it's worth their while to wait it out and get back to it.
It's great something has happened, but let's be honest if one of us peasants did the shit he did we'd be in jail for the rest of our lives.
So is this another OJ Simpson-type situation? Don't go to jail for what you did, just pay a fine for what you did? So no criminal consequences, but some civil ones for the same offense? I mean fraud must be a criminal offense in the US too, right?
This case involved charges of fraud made against Trump's company by the State of New York. This was a civil case, not a criminal case. The consequences were not supposed to be criminal.
The defamation lawsuits brought by E. Jean Carroll were also civil cases. She was not charging Trump with the crime of raping her many years ago; She was suing him (twice) for lying about whether he raped her many years ago. (She won both times.)
I think I get where you are coming from, though. When a person is rich enough to pay the fine, and also shameless enough to revel in the infamy of being found liable in a civil dispute, it can seem like that person doesn't end up suffering any significant consequence for their actions at all.
$355M is a lot of money. Add in the $83M owed to Carroll and these recent fines top $400M, which is an estimated amount of Trump's liquid assets. Trump is now likely running out of cash-on-hand, which could explain his recent takeover of the Republican National Committee -- the GOP's fundraising (and fund-spending) organization.
Criminal consequences come from criminal cases. Trump has invested most of his legal defense against the criminal cases he is facing. Pending criminal cases involving Trump include:
1.) A RICO ("Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations") case charged by the State of Georgia, against Trump and several others who allegedly conspired to steal the state's 16 electoral votes, including by having the President call (Republican) Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger and ask him to "find 11,780 votes" for him. Four people in that case have already accepted a plea deal. This case is currently delayed by a motion to disqualify the DA because she had a romantic relationship with a lawyer her office hired to help prosecute the case.
2.) A federal case against Trump for retaining classified documents. A year or so ago, it was found that former President Trump and former VP Mike Pence had kept classified documents after they left office, and that when Joe Biden left the office of VP in 2017, he also kept some classified documents. Both Pence and Biden complied with federal investigation and surrendered the documents immediately when asked. Unlike Pence and Biden, Trump did not comply with federal investigation, and instead took action to conceal the classified documents in his possession. This case is being heard in a Florida courtroom, because Trump was storing these stolen national secrets in a spare bathroom at Mar-A-Lago. The judge is a Trump appointee, and has demonstrated a tendency to rule in Trumps favor whenever she can, but if she shows too much bias she may get taken off the case.
3.) A federal case against Trump for his involvement in the insurrectionist attempt to disrupt the electoral vote count in congress on January 6, 2021. Trump has been indicted on four charges in this case: "conspiracy to defraud the United States; conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding; obstruction of and attempt to obstruct an official proceeding; and conspiracy against rights." Trump's defense has been that he has "absolute immunity" for any actions he took while serving as President. This claim of immunity has been denied and appealed multiple times. Trump has now asked the SCOTUS to hear his appeal, but they haven't said if they will yet. Until they do, that case is on hold, but there's no one else to appeal to higher than them. If SCOTUS chooses not to hear Trump's immunity appeal, the lower court's denial of it will stand and the case will go forward.
Could you do these as regular posts? It was the perfect length and relevance to help me feel up to speed on all the cases!
Yes, but why no criminal lawsuit as well? Defrauding people for hunderts of millions of dollars sure sounds like a offence to me that could/should lead to criminal charges. I don't get how this would not be obvious now that a judge already has found Trump guilty in a civil lawsuit.
Different standards of evidence, for one. The same evidence may not prove his guilt based on criminal statutes.
That's clear. If I understand it correctly, all it would take is a public prosecutor to bring criminal charges. Even if the criminal case against Trump in this fraud case ended in an acquittal, the civil judgment would still stand. I'm just trying to understand what the prosecution's thinking might be. Perhaps that they wanted to wait for the civil trial first in order to have a better chance with the jury in a criminal trial (even if the jury should in theory decide completely impartially, someone who has already been convicted of fraud will probably seem less credible). Another consideration could be related to the strange fact that an acquittal in the US prevents a retrial of the same case (as far as I know). Either way, it's all rather strange, I think.
That’s coming. Dude has like 91 felony counts awaiting trial. First trial happens in March.
Will he actually have to pay this in any realistic time frame?
Or does he get to lodge a Supreme Court appeal that takes another 5 years to get a decision?
My understanding is that it must be paid in 30 days or, if he wants to appeal it, put into a trust or something. Effectively, removing his access to the money until the appeal is resolved.
I sadly can't find tje article that mentioned the 30 days to pay. Regardless, in order to appeal he needs to provide the court money.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/16/how-will-trump-pay-trial-penalties
Trump has a few options in paying the court. He could pay up everything that he owes now in cash. Or he could try to get an appeal bond, meaning he wouldn’t have to pay all the cash up front in exchange for a premium and putting up collateral.
There's this link: https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-set-rule-trumps-370-million-civil-fraud-case-2024-02-16/
Relevant portion:
Trump could be required to deposit his portion of the full judgment plus interest during an appeal. Trump could also post a smaller amount with collateral and interest by securing a type of loan called an appeal bond. But he may have trouble finding a willing lender after Engoron found he lied to banks about his wealth.
But he may have trouble finding a willing lender after Engoron found he lied to banks about his wealth.
Deutsche Bank has entered the chat 😆
What happens if he doesn't pay?
I really want him to pay, but his previous behaviour makes me think he just won't.
And there's a limit to what anyone else can do about that.
My understanding is that the independent monitor that is tasked by the court to monitor Trump's finances and assets would be able to make the payment with Trump's assets. So basically, either Trump can make the payments himself or someone else will instead.
this is a state court decision. unless there is a federal issue to base an appeal on, scotus can't save him.
While true, this is just a New York Supreme Court decision. He can still appeal to the Appellate Division then to the New York Court of Appeals. I can't imagine he'll get it turned over, but there's a chance the amount might be lowered or something.
Isn't an appellate court just about the handling of the case itself? I doubt that would go anywhere.
Headline at NBC now says "more than $350 million". I imagine it was a typo earlier rushing to get the story posted.
Sounds like NBC needs to care a little more about accuracy and a little less about being first.
Somewhat like the Al Capone case, in that Capone was ultimately handled for tax evasion. Financial clamps can be the most successful.
If all of this fuckery doesn't involve some element of back taxes to be collected, I'd be extemely surprised. And the back tax clamping is a fuck you pay me type clamping for sure.
He wasn't charged with tax evasion, they charged him with over valuing his property values to get favorable loan rates. The lower tax evaluations were used against him.
Understood. But if the Trump apparatus has been undervaluing illegally, and this is the first time evidence of it is front and center, it might catch the attention of the taxman. And that's generally not attention most would want.
Sadly I think the IRS would wait till after the election to avoid the appearance of trying to sway things in favor of the current administration. And even after, only pursue legal action if Trump doesn't win. Fucking equal justice my ass.
Isn't he worth billions? I know that's what he likes to tell people. So this should be no problem, right? Just a small fee.
