https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/18/afd-leader-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-says-german-social-democrats-head
Lars Klingbeil warns far-right party’s discussions of mass deportation sparked fear for millions across country
I would have said something like that about five years ago.
Since then, the AFD and its leaders have shown us their true colours, and especially with the recent fantasizing over mass deportations and other stuff, it's crystal clear what they are: fascists. No sheep's clothing involved here any more.
for a wolf in sheep's clothing, they are doing a very bad job of trying to hide they are a wolf. It's more like an obvious wolf only trying to fake sheep's noises, and even that they do badly.
"Der Grund, warum wir von kulturfremden Völkern wie Arabern, Sinti und Roma etc. überschwemmt werden, ist die systematische Zerstörung der bürgerlichen Gesellschaft als mögliches Gegengewicht von Verfassungsfeinden, von denen wir regiert werden. Diese Schweine sind nichts anderes als Marionetten der Siegermächte des 2. Weltkrieges und haben die Aufgabe, das deutsche Volk klein zu halten indem molekulare Bürgerkriege in den Ballungszentren durch Überfremdung induziert werden sollen."
"The reason we are flooded with people of different cultures like Arabs, Romani People etc. is the systematic destruction of the civil society as a possible counterweight to the enemies of our consitution that govern us. Those pigs are nothing but puppets for the victors of World War 2 and their job is to keep the german people down by inducing civil wars through foreign domination in areas of high population density"
(while being married to a woman from Sri-Lanka and not actually living nor paying taxes in Germany)
more like an obvious wolf only trying to fake sheep's noises
And 20% of Germans going 'oh no I'm very cross with the government, I'm gonna vote for those, uhm, hehe, """"sheep"""" over there'
It's worse than that, most of their voters know well what they are voting for. The Nazi scum has been emboldened by the established parties and the media parroting the AfD's rhetoric, thanks to that, there is less stigma associated with being a Nazi and voting for a Nazi party.
Overpopulation is an incorrect translation for "Überfremdung". It hurts to improve the translation of a German alt-right buzzword, but I'd rather translate it with "over-foreignization" (kudos to Chat GPT with helping).
Wolf in sheep's clothing? WHAT? Just a wolf...
And people are not voting for the AfD even tho they have Nazi talking points, people vote for them BECAUSE they are Nazis.
And yet they don't want to initiate the procedure to ban the fascist party.
Most of the supposedely democratic parties in Germany currently work either as "Steigbügelhalter" the guy who holds the horse saddle stirrup, for the lord to get on. Or they work as "Totengräber" the grave diggers of democracy, by standing by idly and accepting the loss of democratic principle and creating social and economic situations that fuel the fascists propaganda.
And yet they don't want to initiate the procedure to ban the fascist part
I'm for doing that in general, but I think doing that now would be pretty dumb. If you want to initiate the procedure you better make sure your case is air tight, everything else would be a desaster. Only some regional organizations have been designated extremist so far and some only recently. So a lot of the gathering of evidence has started and surely there will be more to come.
How long should they keep waiting? Until the AfD has won the election and Höcke declares himself Führer? It would be a tiny bit too late by then.
Yes, because doing it right now or waiting until it's entirely too late are the only two options. Not sure what that post is trying to accomplish.
@Localhorst86@feddit.de commented a part of aspeak of the high ranking party member Alice Weidel here.
It is classic Nazi rhetoric and uses the same scapegoat that Anders Breivik used to justify the mass murder of more than 70 teenagers in Norway.
Also if it would be ruled that the party in its entirety does not justify a ban yet, but its local branches that do, would get banned, that would effectively destroy them too. Also other measures that could be deemed appropriate, like blocking their funds, banning various associated organizations etc. would all help.
Meanwhile i dont think there is anyone, who likes their fascist ideology, but doesnt vote for them on the basis of uncertainty, about their democratic legitimation. Nobody that follows fascist ideology cares about democratic values or the constitution.
It is classic Nazi rhetoric and uses the same scapegoat that Anders Breivik used to justify the mass murder of more than 70 teenagers in Norway.
It's awful, but I'm not sure how exactly you think that would factor in or be relevant in a possible court case. I'm fairly certain the bar of evidence is a bit higher than "they share talking points with other Nazis".
Because those talking points revolve around the idea of an ethnically homogenous Europe/Nation that is in davger of being "conquered" by inferior races that have to be deported or murdered to prevent this alleged conquest.
It is genocidal ideology and as such is both in clear violation to the constitution and a danger to the democratic order.
The point is that their ideology gives way to murderous violence.
that is in davger of being "conquered" by inferior races that have to be deported or murdered to prevent this alleged conquest.
While that's a common talking point on the right, that's not even what the statement is saying. The only ones who are clearly villified in it are the people in power and they're even brandished as supposedly "unconstitutional" (implying the Afd is on the side of the constitution).
It's still complete hogwash of course and pure conspiracy thinking that is gross and detestable in several different ways.
The point is that their ideology gives way to murderous violence.
I don't disagree. My point is only that just saying/claiming that by itself isn't going to hold up in court. If it were, Weidel would have long been sued and found guilty of "Volksverhetzung" for statements like that. But these people, at least the more cunning ones, know how to couch their hate in words that generate some degree of plausible deniability and let their followers fill out the blanks.
The AfD also made statements of "well temperated cruelty" against the people they deem undesireable. In combination with these and many more statements made by high ranking AfD members there is no plausible deniability left.
In combination with these and many more statements made by high ranking AfD members there is no plausible deniability left.
Well, that certainly is a much better and more comprehensive point. It's also just a claim of course and personally I don't have a good enough overview of all the statements made, their relations etc to meaningfully judge that.
You're free to expand on that point in more detail of course. Other than that, I can't meaningfull contribute much here at this point.
What? They just met with known neo nazis to form a plan to deport even people with german passports.
Who's "they"? The afd related person sitting most closely to the Afd leadership was "let go" from his position in response to the revelations. And all of them claim they were there in private capacity.
Without further evidence that is hardly worth all that much in front of a court.
Yeah of course he was let go, because of the media coverage. Otherwise nothing wouldn't have happened.
They are not that dumb to attend something like this in person. There were other elected AfD Officials present Also "private capacity" is a lame excuse that doesn't fool nobody
Yes, they aren't dumb enough to attend it in person precisely to avoid it falling back on them in a court of law. That's my whole point. Everybody with half a brain can still see what's going on of course.
Having their interior minister being clearly in favor of chat control surely helps as well.
To be fair that whole office seems to produce and attract people who are anti basic human rights and authoritarian in general, regardless of party or even country.
At least Faeser hasn't yet celebrated a birthday by having a number of asylum seekers deported to Afghanistan, one for each year she has been on earth.
What comes first in the natural evolution of interior ministers: model train enthusiasm or racist birthday parties?
The problem is not really the AfD. Germany always had extrem right parties that never made it past 5%. It's the people (want to) vote for them.
And this is what bothers me about the discussion about the ban. It means that our political system failed. None of the other parties could offer enough for the potential AfD voters. No discussion worked. Banning a political party should be a rare and "last resort" kind of measure.
And the major reason why they are voted for, our broken asylum system, remains unfixed.
People also act like this is a no-brainer no-risk move.
Um verboten werden zu können, müsste sich die AfD "von ihrem Programm und Inhalt her gegen die freiheitlich-demokratische Grundordnung wenden", erklärt Parteienrechtlerin Sophie Schönberger im Gespräch mit ZDFheute - ihr Ziel müsse sein, diese aktiv zu beseitigen oder zu beeinträchtigen. Schönberger sieht die Erfolgsaussichten für ein solches Verfahren skeptisch, es seien "sehr, sehr hohe Hürden", die Karlsruhe da aufstelle. https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/deutschland/afd-verbot-analyse-politix-partei-100.html
Maybe you still have to ban them. But for me it's at least not as clear.
And the major reason why they are voted for, our broken asylum system, remains unfixed.
I'm not sure that's really the main reason. We also have an energy crisis and a recession and a lot of people simply don't have the money to pay for their basic needs. In 2022, 5.5 million people weren't able to heat their homes properly due to monetary reasons. Our current political party leaves these people alone, energy prices are rising again this year and the FDP clings to their debt brake ("Schuldenbremse") which makes the situation even worse.
The AfD promises simple solutions for the current problems and a lot of people want to believe them. I'm sure a lot of voters flock to them because of immigration politics, but I believe it's not the only reason.
I don’t know but banning #1 political party in a region might have unexpected negative results
The biggest problem is: If an attempted ban fails, it will further legitimize a fascist party, which will probably bring them even more votes. It's a really hard and dangerous step to take.
Every far right party ever, in any given country, has claimed and still claims that the asylum system of the respective country is 'broken'. That doesn't make it actually true. But in the history of right wing parties, the foreigner, the immigrant, the 'other' has always been the prime scapegoat, for any problem they could possibly conjure up.
Just after the German reunification, neonazis started violent attacks that targeted immigrants and asylum seekers. This violence has not stopped. Neonazis are responsible for a major part of politically motivated violence too.
But political parties like the AfD know the score. They formulate their programs in a way that makes it hard to find grounds for outright bans. To say that their program has to give grounds for a ban is short-sighted - that will never happen. They need to be judged by the things they say outside of their programs, and by the actions they commit and inspire.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The co-leader of the German Social Democrats (SPD), the largest party in the Bundestag, has accused the leader of the far-right Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) of being a “wolf in sheep’s clothing” as he warned that plans for mass deportation discussed at a secret meeting attended by its members had sparked fears for millions across the country.
In an extraordinary parliamentary debate on “fortifying democracy” in reaction to the far-right gathering that took place in November in Potsdam, Lars Klingbeil described the AfD as “rightwing extremist”.
As thousands of protesters around the country were expected to demonstrate against the AfD for the sixth evening in a row, Klingbeil, who has since 2021 been co-leader of the party of the chancellor, Olaf Scholz, said revelations about the meeting on “remigration” had struck fear into the hearts of many.
The reports of the meeting by the investigative journalism bureau Correctiv probably offered “only a small insight into things that they are discussing and planning”, he said, focusing his gaze on the AfD’s members, some of whom sat shaking their heads.
Scholz has said the meeting should be examined by the constitutional court while the interior minister, Nancy Faeser, called on the conservative Christian Democratic Union to distance itself from the far right.
“The wind is turning,” he said, pointing to poll ratings for all three government parties in particular in the state of Saxony that are, he said, in danger of failing to reach the 5% hurdle needed to enter parliament.
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