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Firefox DYING is TERRIBLE for the Web

https://tilvids.com/w/5ByuA1TQTCtfTtr7hhzhPF

Get 100$ credit for your own Linux and gaming server: https://www.linode.com/linuxexperiment Get your Linux desktop or laptop here: https://slimbook.es/en/ 👏 SUPPORT THE CHANNEL: Get access to an exclusive weekly podcast, vote on the next topics I cover, and get your name in the credits: YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5UAwBUum7CPN5buc-_N1Fw/join Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thelinuxexperiment Or, you can donate whatever you want: https://paypal.me/thelinuxexp?locale.x=fr_FR You can also protect your privacy by using this extension from Startpage, each install helps the channel with a small commission: https://add.startpage.com/en/protection/?campaign=4&source=aff 🏆 FOLLOW ME ELSEWHERE: Linux news in Youtube Shorts format: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtZp0mK9IBrpS2-jNzMZmoA Join us on our Discord server: https://discord.gg/xK7ukavWmQ Twitter : http://twitter.com/thelinuxEXP My Gaming on Linux Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaw_Lz7oifDb-PZCAcZ07kw 📷 GEAR I USE: Sony Alpha A6600 Mirrorless Camera: https://amzn.to/30zKyn7 Sigma 56mm Fixed Prime Lens: https://amzn.to/3aRvK5l Logitech MX Master 3 Mouse: https://amzn.to/3BVI0Od Bluetooth Space Grey Mac Keyboard: https://amzn.to/3jcJETZ Logitech Brio 4K Webcam: https://amzn.to/3jgeTh9 LG Curved Ultrawide Monitor: https://amzn.to/3pcTVDH Logitech White Speakers: https://amzn.to/3n6wSb0 Xbox Controller: https://amzn.to/3BWmIA3 Amazon Links are affiliate codes and generate small commissions to support the channel 00:00 Intro 00:47 Sponsor: 100$ free credit off your Linux or Gaming server 01:37 The decline of Firefox 05:20 Why that's a problem 08:13 Why is Firefox important? 11:43 How can we solve this? 13:23 Sponsor: Get your Linux laptop or desktop with Slimbook 14:23 Support the channel There is no denying that Firefox has been progressively losing ground in the web browser race. It's highest peak was at the end of 2009, at almost 32% market share, when Internet Explorer has about 55%, and Chrome was barely edging out the 5% market share. Fast forward to 11 years later, and Chrome now has 62.7% of the market, where Firefox only has 4.2%. How did that happen? Why did the browser that basically started the work to take IE down, that introduced tabs to the masses, and that made sure web standards were respected, why did THAT browser fall so low? First, Mozilla completely missed the mobile market. There's also the fact that Google pushed CHROME very aggressively. Firefox also kinda rested on their laurels for a while, while Chrome worked tirelessly on their engine. Now you might think: that's a free market. People use what's best, and if Firefox gets better, people will flock back. And while that's a possibility, as it stands, it still creates an issue. The web relies on being open and on evolution. These evolutions, to be beneficial to everyone, need to be decided collectively, by independent organisms, supported by all browsers, and implemented freely. What I mean is that the browser engine shouldn't control how the web runs, looks, or what it can do. The browser engine is just there to ensure that websites and webapps just run like they should. The rise of Chrome and chromium based browsers, just like any other monopoly, turns that on its head. Developers, you see, can only implement features, if they know that their users will be able to make use of them. If everyone uses the same engine, and that engine decides to NOT implement a feature, then it's just not going to be used at all, because why make something that no user will ever be able to take advantage of? This is a problem. Not right now, but it might become one in the future. See, Chromium is open source, as is Blink, the rendering engine used in Chromium and every browser using it. It's open source, but decisions are made by Google. In 2019, 92% of commits to the code base were made by Google employees. So let's not kid ourselves: Google has total control over what goes in and what they don't want to see in Chromium. You might say, someone would fork chromium or Blink and start their own browser, and that would solve it. Except no one would move to that browser. What's important isn't Firefox specifically, it's having rendering engine diversity. Having 2 or 3 engines that have almost equal market share is crucial to avoid that situation, because in that case, the one that doesn't implement a new technology doesn't hold back the whole web. So how can we solve this? How can we make sure that Chromium doesn't start deciding how the web should run? Well, as users, apart from not using chromium based browsers, and supporting other engines financially, there isn't much we can do. The other option would be to try and take governance of Chromium away from Google, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

6 comments

drascus

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Yeah I am with this guy. I am basically willing to die on that hill. The average user does not understand how important the open web is. We are kind of screwed but I don't know what else to do other than use FF and when people ask me tell them to use FF too.

CHEFKOCH

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Nonsense video, underlying problem is monopolies and private companies who develop the standards, not what browser you use.

If the standards are fully open, transparent and not concerning then it would make no difference if you use chrome and firefox because everyone would use same basis.

Also chromium team is not purchased or owned by Google, most volunteers are normal people, developers or security researchers that code on it in their free time. You can fork, modify the source as you please but that does not change the argumentation about web standards and how build or control them.

Ferk

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Nonsense video, underlying problem is monopolies and private companies who develop the standards, not what browser you use.

It's the other way around. Which browser you use is what directly determines whether monopoly and private companies develop the standard you use.

You could write a standard independently of those companies, but then if everyone chooses to use browser engines from companies that don't follow it, what's the point?

If everyone uses a particular browser then whatever that browser implements becomes the standard. It's all about what browser you use.

If the standards are fully open, transparent and not concerning then it would make no difference if you use chrome and firefox because everyone would use same basis.

If what you want is everyone using the same basis, then what you need is to get everyone to use the same browser engine (which is what is happening already).

However, focusing on that is likely to not result in it being "fully open" as long as the popular browsers are not interested in openness (in particular with a MIT-licensed basis that is allowed to be privately altered, extended and corrupted in proprietary forks by those popular browsers who don't have to be "transparent" on what exactly they changed).

If what you want is for it to be "fully open", then you'd want people to be more careful and choose a browser with a "fully open" basis, instead of using whatever is more popular. It's still all about what browser you use.

CHEFKOCH

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It’s the other way around. Which browser you use is what directly determines whether monopoly and private companies develop the standard you use.

No it is not, this is a myth. As you also can use free software on closed OS, which happens to be the standard. Keyword Microsoft and Windows. You also can choose to not support this, it is you and not the monopoly. If there is no alternative that is usable, people continue to use what they got. It is the underlying problem, Firefox is so bad and so unusable by default, so people switch or use something else. Nothing to do with Monopoly. The standards itself are created and dictated by monopolies, so it plays no role what you use if it anyway ends up that you must support such standards.

You could write a standard independently of those companies, but then if everyone chooses to use browser engines from companies that don’t follow it, what’s the point?

The point is that user generated or govt establish frameworks can b used as basis.Its useless if you build a browser surrounded by standards created by Microsoft, IBM etc alone.

If everyone uses a particular browser then whatever that browser implements becomes the standard. It’s all about what browser you use.

This is already the case, you can choose not to use FLoC. Nothing changes here.

If what you want is everyone using the same basis, then what you need is to get everyone to use the same browser engine (which is what is happening already).

Please learn the difference between Browser engine and web standards, nonsense you talk here. Your Browser engine can adopt, implement or reject standards. Irrelevant in dyding discussion anyway since you provide absolute no solutions yourself in the discussion here, like everyone else people feeding off my ideas, practical in every thread. That you cannot continue is clear, web gives a shit about Mozilla, clearly the case. Some people hold together by hopes and delusions do not represent the web. Never did.

The discussion here is not about Browser you use, as people use whatever works best for them, and not what implements xyz, this is clearly shown in practical every thread. So enforcing your ideas will not work for the mass, better way around is to create open frameworks, documents that are actually usable and directly easily reviewable because at the end of the day your Browser runs pretty much on Android and iOS and not a open system. There exist open alternatives but they are not well funded, future unclear and the web - the main user - does not use it, they trust big corpos, they rely on their eco-system. Like Mozilla relies on money from yahoo, google etc in the past. Corpos you shit-talk.

Ferk

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No it is not, this is a myth. As you also can use free software on closed OS, which happens to be the standard

Why does it "happen to be the standard"?

Because people use it. At the end of the day, usage is what determines what's standard.

Whether a particular person can opt to go for something non-standard (eg. Linux) doesn't make what I said any less true.

And the problem is that the non-standard person can't expect the same level of support (eg. Linux drivers for obscure hardware).. because devs and companies won't care so much for any deviations from what's standard.

The point is that user generated or govt establish frameworks can b used as basis

That would be useless if people (both end users and web developers) don't use it.

The Mozilla Foundation created their own browser. Yet they are dying since they are getting abandoned by both web devs and end users. Creating your own does not solve the problem.

If web devs design for Chrome and Chrome adds Chrome-specific deviations from the standard, it's gonna be extremelly hard to keep up, which is what is happening with Firefox.. they can't keep up, they keep receiving reports of problems because websites are developed for Chrome.

This is already the case, you can choose not to use FLoC. Nothing changes here.

Yes, In there I was just describing how things work. As I see it.

Please learn the difference between Browser engine and web standards, nonsense you talk here

Web standards are just a set of rules that hipothetically Browser engines follow.

In practice, however, no browser engine actually follows the standard 100%, since they all have their very own extensions or try different optimizations that result in differences of implementation.. Google keeps adding their own spin on things at a pace that is hard to keep up for any other browser.

If it were possible for web standards to be really, truly, and fully respected, then indeed it wouldn't matter what browser you use. But that's not what the reality is. There are websites that work and look different in Chrome than in Firefox.

abbenm

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Thank you for the time and effort you put into patiently explaining what is basically an embrace/extend/extinguish strategy by Google.

These kinds of convos are frustrating, because a one-browser monopoly over the web should be so obviously bad that you don't need to explain it. But, the golden rule of the internet is that you will always find someone who wants to die on the most ridiculous hill, for no coherent reason.