https://apnews.com/article/germany-bavaria-antisemitism-raids-b0a8df9cb8d14c8cf19a123370d5353f
German authorities have raided the homes of 17 people in the state of Bavaria accused of spreading antisemitic hate speech and threats targeting Jews online.
Good, arrest them all. It’s absolutely horrendous that people use the tragedy of the Palestinian people to be antisemitic.
You'll be arrested next, when it turns out the people arrested were jewish so your comment counts as anti-semitism.
First they came for the Communists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists And I did not speak out Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews And I did not speak out Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me And there was no one left To speak out for me
First they came for the Communists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Communist
"they" in this poem is referring to anti-semites, specifically Nazis. Germany is doing the right thing by censoring and excluding anti-semites from society, to ensure that what this poem describes will never happen again.
Are you drunk? You are now at the Point of negative knowledge about what's going on! You are defending People who discriminate and harm others.
I have zero idea what your angle is, but for the benefit of others...
Nazi-ism is a chosen belief system with a core belief in depriving other groups of basic human rights. The depriving other people of basic human rights is the key part.
Hate speech is directed towards people with attributes that they cannot change or religion. Religion gets added in there because changing religion is not a simple thing, and in major religions doesn't hurt people. (Don't start citing religious terrorists - that is fundamentalism within a religion and not a commonly shared belief among all followers.
So hating on nazis is cool.
Yes it is okay to hate and arrest Nazis.
And you know what? Ther German Law agrees with me so get bent and suck a Lemon.
Using Niemoller to support antisemitism is peak 2016 "triggered, lib?" bullshit. Fuck off with that. The intolerant don't deserve tolerance. If you try to deny someone their humanity, yours is forfeit.
First they came for the antisemites and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't one of them... /s
This made me think because raiding peoples homes doesn't seem right, but saying things like this definitely isn't right.
In the end I think a inclusive society should exclude it's exclusive elements.
I feel we just can't agree on this argument online, and it's likely because the line for tolerance differs on so many factors, history being a huge one.
I'm aware German laws exist to ban fascist symbols, likely as an ounce of prevention along the lines, "we won't repeat another Hitler".
It might take the US falling into a fascist state and being liberated to make us adopt such "drastic" measures as raids. Until then 1A has been routinely held up to protect hate speech so for now it's up to us as a society to make a conscious decision what we'll tolerate. We just have to be as vocal about it as the racists/fascists.
The raids were probably because of the threats and not because of antisemitic remarks. The first might get you arrested if you scream it in the streets, but threatening people should get you raided imho
By already solved i assume you mean every philosopher throughput history has a different opinion?
So its ok when we silence a group of people for their beliefs but not when they do it?
If you want a tolerant society, you cannot tolerate the intolerant.
If you want democracy, you must suppress anti-democratic ideas.
You have to fight for want you believe in, and not let antithetical ideas fester and subvert yours, just because they exploit your tolerance and use the space you give them to fight it.
Sure, but your methodology for determining what is an anti-democratic idea should be really tight, before you raid/arrest people.
No one wants murders in their society, but showing that they did that action is more important than stating that an action is wrong/anti-democratic/immoral etc.
In this case if they have evidence, they should be investigated as is being done.
My critique is on the general sense of tolerance/intolerance as that can be vague, although unjustified incitement of violence or violent action is a good place to draw a line. However what is a call to violence can be tricky to parse sometimes.
If you want a tolerant society, you cannot tolerate the intolerant
That doesn’t mean silencing anyone who utters “wrongspeak,” but authoritarians like you are pushing precisely that. “We shall decide who the intolerant are and they shall be banned from our tolerant society.” I would much rather live in a world where I had to listen to ignorant views like yours than be “protected” from them but never forced to figure out for myself why I disagree. Bigotry flourishes in darkness; the solution is to bring it out into the light.
But the actual content of what these people said hasnt been published so we dont knwo if they where callibg for vilence. Maybw they where just being hatefull?
If they call for genocide? Yes, of course.
What makes you think society should just sit idly by and do nothing when people call for mass murder and genocide?
Imagine your dumb fuck of a child sending antisemitic hate shit through his phone and a few days later the police raids your home and takes all your devices. Absolute nightmare.
read the goddamn article before posting hyperbolic and false statements like the one you posted here. None of these people are minors, but they are all advocating for the extermination of an entire race.
One suspect allegedly sent a sticker in a WhatsApp school class chat with the words “Gas the Jews.” Another person, a German-Turkish dual citizen, allegedly posted on his account that “the Jewish sons” deserved nothing more than to be “exterminated,” dpa reported.
Uh... What are you defending here? This sounds like literal neo-Nazis wanting to commit genocide.
They literally quoted and then clearly stated what they were objecting to. You posting things that aren't remotely "left-wing demonization of Israel" and then asking them to defend things they didn't remotely defend is a bullshit strawman.
Well, first of all, I wasn't accusing them of anything. However, the implication of saying 'Get Fucked Germany' is that Germany is going after invalid targets. The examples given in the article are inarguably some straight-up Nazi shit though. I was just pointing that out to the person who, judging by the rest of their post, seems opposed to Nazis.
But if you want to get into it, if you think that Nazis aren't laundering antisemitism through criticism and demonization of Israel, you're wrong. Nazis have always done that. If the people described in the article are from a leftist movement, you should be offended by that, not defending them because they're leftist.
However, the implication of saying ‘Get Fucked Germany’ is that Germany is going after invalid targets.
The implication is that leftists vilifying Israel are not valid targets. Antisemitism is illegal in Germany, criticism of Israel is not. None of us know whether leftists were targeted, or whether said leftists were being antisemitic, but the quote lumps them in with unambiguous bad guys.
If the people described in the article are from a leftist movement, you should be offended by that, not defending them because they’re leftist.
WHY WOULD ANYONE ASSUME THEY'RE LEFTISTS? Nothing about those statements were left-coded or about Israel. This is bothsides bullshit to conflate legit criticism of a nation currently committing war crimes and mass murder (y'know villainous stuff) in with "extreme right-wing circles" (actual Nazis, definitely doing antisemtism) and "Islamist fanatics" (also definitely doing antisemitism).
This is the person responsible for that quote, expressing support for bannings of pro-Palestinian demonstrations and Palestine-associated clothing while implying criticism of Israel is a justified reason to ban an event. They want criticism of Israel (or support for Palestinians) to be seen as equivalent to antisemitism.
Cities such as Hamburg have blocked pro-Palestinian rallies, while Berlin’s education senator authorized schools to forbid the keffiyeh scarf and the phrase “Free Palestine.”
Josef Schuster, president of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, has called these bans a “justified” measure against “anti-Israel, aggressive and antisemitic” threats.
The implication is that leftists vilifying Israel are not valid targets. Antisemitism is illegal in Germany, criticism of Israel is not. None of us know whether leftists were targeted, or whether said leftists were being antisemitic, but the quote lumps them in with unambiguous bad guys.
The context here is that 17 people had their homes raided for what appears to be indisputable antisemitism. It doesn't matter if it's from the left or the right. The subset of people on the left who are also racist pieces of shit are unambiguous bad guys. The quote lists the left as a source of antisemitism. Your argument that this is focused on either all of the left or all critics of Israeli policy... seems a bit of a stretch. If you're contending that it's impossible for antisemitism to exist on the left or in pro-Palestinian movements, I'd like to know why. Especially when talking about antisemitism in Germany where it has to be hidden.
I've documented and organized against neo-Nazis. I've also fought for Palestinian rights and a Palestinian state for decades. I've seen Nazis at pro-Palestinian rallies I've attended. Even if you're mildly critical of Israel, they would happily stand beside you to further their cause even if they'd also happily murder you. It's naive to think that they aren't infiltrating or injecting antisemitism into those movements. People on the left aren't magical, mythical creatures either; they're just people. Some of those people are susceptible enough or dumb enough to buy into that bullshit.
This is more of a general comment than a direct response to what you said, so don't take it as an accusation. A lot of people - and a hell of a lot of people I've seen on here - have reacted to the indefensible position that criticism of Israel is inherently antisemitic by swinging to an equally indefensible position that you cannot be antisemitic as long as you're being critical of Israel. That's just plainly false. Literally every Nazi and antisemite on the planet is critical of Israel. If all people are doing to guard against that shit is to assess whether something is left-coded or framed as criticism of Israel, we're not doing enough. We also shouldn't give those people cover by being reflexively defensive of the left.
WHY WOULD ANYONE ASSUME THEY’RE LEFTISTS?
I'm not assuming they are. If they're talking about people on the left who match the descriptions of the people in the article... those people sound like fucking Nazis.That's an assessment of those people and not a general criticism of the left. Whoever those people are, they can go fuck themselves. If they're of the left, they can get the fuck out.
This is more of a general comment than a direct response to what you said, so don’t take it as an accusation. A lot of people - and a hell of a lot of people I’ve seen on here - have reacted to the indefensible position that criticism of Israel is inherently antisemitic by swinging to an equally indefensible position that you cannot be antisemitic as long as you’re being critical of Israel.
The guy making this quote is very much trying to do the indefensible thing. While you can absolutely be antisemitic in criticism of Israel, that is at most a tiny sliver of anti-Israeli speech on the left (not a Nazi pretending) and yet there is a concerted effort to try to use that to silence criticism by Israel whole cloth (including active government acts). This isn't a good faith advocate mistakenly blurring lines. He's very much trying to tar opposition to Israel (his birth country according to Wiki) or support for their enemy as hate speech. We don't need to pretend this is happening in a void, absent of ongoing campaigns to silence anti-Israel criticism or without the context of the speaker's own words trying to conflate a support for Israeli's victims as criticism with Jewish people.
I don't think it's naïve to make the assumption that these are all good arrests for actual hate speech (for one I expect there are many more than 17 public antisemitic statements), German municipal governments have banned pro-Palestinian events, so it's not really like you can be 100% sure the German government would never blur lines as the quoted speaker wants.
I guess I just don't read his comments as applying as broadly as you do. I would more or less agree with you if I did. I haven't really come across anything that would change my mind about him though.
Schuster was born in Israel - his parents were expelled from Germany in '38 by the Nazis - but he's lived in Germany since he was around 2 years old. This Q&A describes him as a "descendant of one of Germany's oldest Jewish families." He seems like a pretty moderate guy. He himself is critical of the Israeli government. He's opposed to the far-right, theocratic turn in Israel and the ratcheting up of hostilities with Palestinians. He also laments the abandonment of liberal values in Israel. He's specifically stated that criticism of the Israeli government is legitimate but that collectively blaming Israelis or Jews for the actions of the Israeli government is antisemitism. In the past, he's called for the rule of law to be applied consistently when protesters in Berlin were chanting 'Death to Jews,' which doesn't seem like an extreme response. He seems to have been specific in opposing protests that call for violence. I've read criticism of his guest article in Bild that he used the word "barbarian" and there was a photo of Palestinian protesters. There's no way he had anything to do with that photo though, and the text of the article doesn't really match the criticism: "This has nothing to do with Islam . . . We are all part of this society together. It needs everyone . . . Where is the decency that has distinguished this community for so long? [It] is still there. I hope so and I believe in it . . . we don't want shields. We want to live freely in this open society." (autotranslated from German, so there could be some meaning there I missed) He's understandably angry that some Germans would celebrate the killing of Israeli civilians on Oct 7th, but he directs that anger narrowly toward Hamas. I think the contrast between his commentary and some of the extreme statements we saw from Israeli officials in the weeks after the attack is pretty stark anyway.
Most of the time when he's been in the press over the last five years or so it's for really uncontroversial stuff. Like, if someone vandalizes a synagogue, he'll call for more police protection of synagogues. Or he'll meet with a European official and they'll affirm their commitment to combating antisemitism. I can't find any instance of him calling for banning all criticism of Israel and it would seem inconsistent with his past behaviour. He's also not a member of the government so doesn't have any official control over any of these policies, though he seems well-respected and certainly has influence.
There is a line between criticising the Israeli government and real Antisemitism. While the Israeli Government has gone to lengths to muddle the waters here to make any critical word to be considered "Antisemitism", real, Antisemitism still exists.
You are literally being one of the morons muddying the water by defending actual antisemitism right now.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
BERLIN (AP) — German authorities on Tuesday raided the homes of 17 people in the state of Bavaria accused of spreading antisemitic hate speech and threats targeting Jews online.
According to the Bavarian criminal police, the suspects were 15 men and two women aged between 18 and 62, German news agency dpa reported.
The suspects were said to have celebrated the attacks by Palestinian militant group Hamas on Israel on Oct. 7, and were accused of spreading hate speech against Jewish people on social media, using symbols of banned terrorist organizations, dpa reported.
Further searches were carried out in the Bavarian towns of Fuessen and Kaufbeuren as well as in the counties of Passau, Fuerstenfeldbruck, Berchtesgadener Land, Coburg, Aschaffenburg and Hassberge.
“Unfortunately, antisemitism has an impact on the daily life of many Jews in Germany,” Michael Weinzierl, the Bavarian police commissioner against hate crime, told dpa.
For too long, we have allowed a ntisemitism to penetrate into the heart of our society via extreme right-wing circles, radical left-wing demonization of Israel or Islamist fanatics.”
The original article contains 487 words, the summary contains 174 words. Saved 64%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
There's some pretty questionable comment removals here. What exactly triggered Rule 4 in that comment by /u/Marsupial@quokk.au, anonymous mod?
I don't know how to link a specific item in the modlog, and I assume reposting removed content is inherently rulebreaking. Someone was objecting to the quote lumping in leftists criticizing Israel with far right antisemites and Islamist fanatics. The only remotely, squint really hard, maybe it could be construed as in the vaguest vicinity of Rule 4 was saying "fuck Germany" in response, which just isn't racism or prejudice. So other than that, it sure appears to be a mod removing a post because they don't like the argument being made.
I found some of the comments u where talking about since they where direct replies to me. Mr moderator please dont delete peoples angry responces to me they should have the same right to disagree with me if thry want.
Someone should remind the German police that if they're busting on antisemitic hate speech online, they've got a great big backlog of people posting that stuff on Xitter and there's that one billionaire that bought it recently that's a prominent participant in that stuff
You decide:
One suspect allegedly sent a sticker in a WhatsApp school class chat with the words “Gas the Jews.” Another person, a German-Turkish dual citizen, allegedly posted on his account that “the Jewish sons” deserved nothing more than to be “exterminated,” dpa reported.
and from a German source:
A German-Turkish defendant is said to have posted on his account that "the Jewish sons" deserved nothing more than to be slaughtered "and exterminated".
and
According to the LKA, a Turkish citizen posted a picture of Hitler shortly after October 7, adding: "I could kill all the Jews, but I left some alive to show you why I killed them." Next to it, he posted a Palestinian flag, the caption "Free Palestine" and an emoji with a victory sign.
oh, if only OP had included a link to the article!!!
Read the damn thing for yourself, it isn't long at all.
And this is an example of why speech should not be criminalized, even hate speech, unfortunately. Perceptions of what counts as hate speech are subject to change with geopolitical issues that may or may not actually make said speech "hate speech." Today the nazis are antisemites, tomorrow any critic of Isreal's reaction to Hamas' terrorism in Oct is too. You don't have to like what they (hypothetical people) say but freedom of speech is important, short of actual calls to (violent) action themselves words should not be punishable by legal action. Fight them with your words, show others your way is better, but remember what you do to others can easily be turned back on you in short order.
in the example you mention, one thing is antisemitism, the other is not
the fact they are saying it is doesnt make it so
While true, if people are getting locked up for what you and I agree is not, there is functionally no difference between "is and gets locked up" and "isn't but still gets locked up." See what I mean? Saying is one thing, legal action is another. If one can limit speech, "one" being the ruling class/party, then anything they decide to limit can therefore be legally limited and they can turn it like the above article. If the ruling class is instead limited themselves in their abilty to limit speech, yes nazis can say "jews bad because nonsense," and that sucks, but then you can also say "israel bad because genocide," even if the ruling class does not want you to.
Case in point, has anyone been arrested for this in America yet? Not that I'm aware of. And that isn't a bad thing.
yes because it is being used as a tool by a totalitarian government, totalitarian governments would do that regardless of how anyone feels about free speech.
does not mean letting nazis and other criminal scum roam around is a good idea in a free country.
Right, which is bad, and should be called out, which is exactly what I'm doing, which you then come to defend. Face it, the fact that they are a totalitarian (your word) government jailing people for speech is made possible by the fact that they do not have freedom of speech, this is all my exact point.
Well what is considered antisemitism under the law? Is saying death to Jews or is it questioning the murder of civilians and bombing of refugee camps?
I think it's this
Volksverhetzung, in English "incitement to hatred" (used also in the official English translation of the German Criminal Code),[1][2] "incitement of popular hatred", "incitement of the masses", or "instigation of the people", is a concept in German criminal law that refers to incitement to hatred against segments of the population and refers to calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them, including assaults against the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning, or defaming segments of the population.
I think being anti-Israeli actions is enough but being anti-Jewish would be. And "death to Jews" definitely counts
During an April 2023 pro-Palestine protest, observers recorded numerous antisemitic chants, including "Death to the Jews".[25][26] The Berlin Police have confirmed they are investigating charges of Volksverhetzung;[25] two pro-Palestine demonstrations planned for the following weekend were cancelled
From the article you're commenting on:
The suspects were said to have celebrated the attacks by Palestinian militant group Hamas on Israel on Oct. 7, and were accused of spreading hate speech against Jewish people on social media, using symbols of banned terrorist organizations, dpa reported.
and
One suspect allegedly sent a sticker in a WhatsApp school class chat with the words “Gas the Jews.” Another person, a German-Turkish dual citizen, allegedly posted on his account that “the Jewish sons” deserved nothing more than to be “exterminated,” dpa reported.
So probably more the category "celebrating antisemitic terrorism" and "calling for the extermination of all Jews."
Good. Get them all. Damn fascists. They act now as if they support palestine but beware if anyone of them comes near them, then they are "knife wielding Madman".....
"Accused" So they had no idea whether or not these people posted such shit. Nice. So if you're in germany and you know the address of someone you dont like, just accuse them of hate speech and they will have their door kicked down. Nice job germany.
Dude. In Germany you are accused till you are sentenced or cleared. And before you can sentence someone you need to bring him court
It's a mistranslation, I guess. In Germany, "beschuldigt" means charged for a crime, but the literal translation is accused.
No that's angeschuldigt, indicted. Beschuldigt means that there's official investigations and you're a subject, before and after the state attorney files charges with a court. Once court proceedings have started you're both beschuldigt and angeschuldigt.
Dunno if there's an equivalent term in English, aside from that caveat accused is a properly proper translation.
Do you know what the word for "accused" is in German?
They're trying their best to speak to you in your language because it's the only one you know.
Cut them some slack.
I dont think anyone shpuld be arrested for speach. But i can understand germanys reasons to do such things
Did you miss the "threats targeting Jews" part?
Threatening someone's life isn't protected by free speech.
They had a warrant from a judge for threats. A judge determined that it was a threat. Threatening someone is illegal.
Nobody was arrested, they were questioned and police took the computers as evidence.
Edit: Nice edit
So thats a no. Im in no way defending them just that untill ive seen these threats im hestant to condem them.
No, you said this:
I dont think anyone shpuld be arrested for speach. But i can understand germanys reasons to do such things
completely ignoring the article because you've already made up your mind the second you read "speech", suggesting Germany would arrest people for some harmless stuff.
Are you in favour of not getting investigated after you've threatened someone?
I still havnt seen these threats. And germany arrested 6million people for some harmless stuff so wouldnt put it past them.
You're making a fool of yourself just because you would never admit to a mistake.
This got to be the most stupid comment I've read the entire year.