I feel like the problem with Discovery is the same of the warp 10 episode in Voyager. A bunch of people create the most OP way of travelling and barely use it, and don't tell me that the ship is unique and Stamets is the only person in the universe in the following centuries to be able to use it, because that just doesn't make any sense, it's a cheap trick to justify why such an incredible technology has never been mentioned after, not even by a super villain that gives no crap about genetic augmentation.
At least with Voyager you could just write it off as a badly written episode, but you cannot ingore a whole series. Yes even TNG had some magical guy make the ship travel fantaszilion light years, but at least it was out of their control and they could not exploit it.
Also, Trek shows have not been the most consistent ever, but Discovery really went their way on completely distegarding every Star Trek lore existing in the first season which, personal theory, is a major reason for the writers to "get rid" of the ship at the end of season two. Discovery just did not make sense in the universe created by the othee series, to put it where it does no more damage.
It could have been solved if they just decided that the mycelium network got destroyed. They could have had Control release a weapon that destroyed it or something. I agree, "never talk about this" doesn't make sense when science progresses and someone else could have easily discovered it. And I'm guessing there were plenty of spies from Romulus and other such places that became aware of at least the basics of the spore drive.
I like Discovery a lot, but it was handled badly.
They couldn't have destroyed the network, because it was strongly implied that it was a fundamental aspect of the universe itself. What would have been better is if some higher-dimensional beings living there said "You abused the privilege, and your rights to use this network have been revoked".
I don't think you need to do a 'god said so.' That's a real deus ex machina. I'm sure there are ways to make the network unusable for travel in crafting the show.
Honestly, I liked it much more than I thought, given what I saw on YouTube before watching the entire season, especially the klingon battles. After season 1 it gets much better, which seems to be a recurring theme in Trek shows, but for a very different reason herr.
Altought I really don't like most character (especially Burhnam) and I find most of the representation of seasoned officers overly dramatic and silly (looking at you Tilly), most of the themes are well treated and some episodes were particularly good (I enjoyed the mirror episodes more than I could think possible given the first episodes).
Sometimes it feels a very generic scifi show and it doesn't get me too attached, but it's a decent enough show to keep watching.
I never have high expectations for a sci-fi show's first season, because most of them are still finding their footing, which is harder to do with sci-fi and its dramatic plots than it is with a sitcom. So while I agree, Discovery got a lot stronger after season 1, I let a lot of stuff in season 1 slide. I just wish they had found better resolutions to things in season 1 in later seasons.
Fuckin' jeepers, this is grasping at straws.
There's no "lore" regarding the spore drive or the uniforms, so nothing to disregard.
What specific lore about the Klingons was abandoned by Disco. Just one specific thing. Any single, specific thing.
In Discovery, instead of honorable warriors, the klingons are a bunch of sneaky backstabbing and coward warriors. They also don't look like klingons at all, both in appearance and architecture, the speak like their mouth is full of potatoes and for some reasons they make ships out of coffins.
I'm not against change, what I don't like is calling another thing with its name just because you get to be part of a franchise. The only thing they have in common with klingons of other series is the language and that they want to kill. All the modifications they made, just for the sake of it, makes it look like they wanted to use the standard scifi appearal of standard bad aliens and just put the name "klingons" on it. No surprise they reverted this change and discarded all of this in season two.
Btw "the klingons started growing their hair again" might be the single most stupid line I've ever heard in a Trek show, especially considering the reason why it was said.
In Discovery, instead of honorable warriors, the klingons are a bunch of sneaky backstabbing and coward warriors.
Like they are in TOS?
They also don’t look like klingons at all
Are you similarly upset by the change in appearance the occurred between TOS and TMP?
and architecture
Architecture? I don't know, the House Mo'Kai fortress we see in season two doesn't seem all that out of place. The rounded towers of the capital city seen in ENT is a greater divergence than anything we see in Disco. But that's also fine, because architectural styles change over time.
the speak like their mouth is full of potatoes
And apparently, according to experts in the language, that's the best Klingon has ever sounded on screen. Not really sure how that qualifies as a lore thing, though.
they make ships out of coffins.
One ship. The home of a cult leader.
A bunch of people create the most OP way of travelling and barely use it, and don’t tell me that the ship is unique and Stamets is the only person in the universe in the following centuries to be able to use it, because that just doesn’t make any sense, it’s a cheap trick to justify why such an incredible technology has never been mentioned after, not even by a super villain that gives no crap about genetic augmentation.
That wasn’t really the reason, the reason wasn’t nobody else could figure it out or that nobody wanted to do it because it required genetic modification, the reason was that jumping on the mycelial network was actively killing it unless I am misremembering things which is in line with the rest of star trek’s ethos (how about the DS9 episode where they help the dominion destroy a trans warp gate for example? There are other technologies that are abandoned and hidden for the greater safety of the universe all over Star Trek, it can be really silly I agree but I don’t think discovery is unique here.
The retcon is that the whole spore drive program was actively suppressed, because any knowledge of Discovery and/or Control would lead to cosmic apocalypse. And so part of Section 31's imprimatur was to work behind the scenes and prevent it and other disruptive tech from seeing the light. And other civilizations did the same, because the same thing happened to them at some point in their history.
It's pretty sweaty, and requires quite a bit of stretches credulity, but it beats a lazy handwave.
I assume the spore drive is in a wood box in section 31s "neato beans" warehouse next to Rikers "phase through matter and I guess go invisible whatever do what you want bro" cloak.
I feel like the issue with Discovery is that it just shoe-horns in an overproduced and under considered last 2 episodes every season in the name of "stakes".
The only issues I have (currently, until proven wrong) with DIscovery with the Spore Drive and other technological things, is that it didn't seem to have an answer for why the Federation didn't use it later. I do know that in the timeskip season, a log does not mention the use of the s-drive.
But man I can only imagine how pissed Admiral Janeway would have been to find out it exists.
Plus I can't hate a show that has Doug Jones in it. I didn't get into Discovery, but I don't hate it.
it didn’t seem to have an answer for why the Federation didn’t use it later.
Well, you need to either find and enslave an exotic space tardigrade in order to navigate the network, or illegally splice said tardigrade's DNA into your own.
And even then, navigation is pretty challenging, and can result in accidental time and/or interdimensional travel.
And a malfunction has the potential to destroy all life in the multiverse.
And both ships that had the prototypes installed were lost within about a year.
Take your pick, really.
For the reward of instantaneous travel, I’m sure the Federation could muddle its way through amending a 100 year old law. The rest of the points don’t seem all that different than the complications we see our heroes regularly encounter exploring the galaxy. And none of them were enough to convince the crew of the Discovery to stop using the spore drive for the rest of the series.
Don’t get me wrong, I love Discovery anyway. Trek is full of miracle technologies that go conveniently forgotten. Janeway has no reason to be miffed given that she sat on an infinite speed drive herself, which had no downside that the doctor wouldn’t have been able to cure after it took them home.
For the reward of instantaneous travel, I’m sure the Federation could muddle its way through amending a 100 year old law.
Not really. The Federation, humanity most of all, are aggressively against genetic engineering. On top of it the genetic engineering requires one of those specific species of tardigrade. None were found despite Starfleet having a call put out to go looking for it. Only one was found and that was on accident.
The rest of the points don’t seem all that different than the complications we see our heroes regularly encounter exploring the galaxy.
Navigation in the other Trek shows isn't difficult. It's pathetically simple provided you're not going through some weird distortion or nebula that messes with a bunch of shit. Warp also doesn't destroy all known sentient life in the galaxy. Whether the Discovery keeps using it or not is irrelevant. At the time that the Spore Drive was known, it was not feasible to make another attempt at a spore drive. They did not have any of the originating scientists, they did not have required materials, and they were prohibited by their own law.
Janeway has no reason to be miffed given that she sat on an infinite speed drive herself, which had no downside that the doctor wouldn’t have been able to cure after it took them home.
Yep. That always made zero fucking sense to me. It's proven you can be un-salamandered and they have an inorganic being on board who wouldn't be affected. Why the hell don't they just Warp 10 back to the Alpha Quadrant? Or put everyone in stasis while they Warp 10 over? They've done it before. Janeway doesn't get to complain about a spore drive that would have required her to rebuild the nacelles from the ground up when she was sitting on a way home with a solution and didn't bother.
Not to mention the specific spores required for the drive to connect with the mycelial network come from one specific type of fungus that exists at least partially within subspace and doesn't seem to be all that common.
Could you imagine a Voyager where the ship is no longer constantly running towards home? One where they have to stay and gather materials to get their warp 10 drive working. The species they meet will be the same species around a few seasons later, and the relationships they build with them matter. Maybe stasis isn't good enough, and they have to hold everyone in a transporter buffer, which means rebuilding huge sections of the ship to support having all the crew inside transporters at once. They expect this to take years, but it's still by far the shortest way home. A few shuttles get modified and they send couriers back to the alpha quadrant. So they have some contact with Star Fleet, but it's not as simple as opening a channel.
If there's only enough story material here to support a few seasons, then maybe something comes up that means they have to go back and fix it. Maybe some Borg shit. Make up a reason to keep the Maquis crew around (not like Star Fleet gives a shit once the Dominion War is underway).
Good thing they never gave us that nightmare of a show.
And a malfunction has the potential to destroy all life in the multiverse.
I didn't like that part at all. An infinite multiverse, which they state in DSC is the case, means that anything with a probability greater than zero is guaranteed. Mathematically, the multiverse should have already been wiped out at some point. It's also a throwaway line meant to increase dramatic tension for all of ten seconds before the scene ends, and an empty threat given that following through would end the show.
Maybe it's like vacuum decay; yes, it's already happened, but maybe it doesn't propagate instantly. There are expanding pockets of dead universes around where malfunctions occurred, but the Multiverse, in its infinite size, means that these pockets are also infinitesimally small compared to it.
Yyyyyyeahhh genetic modification has been a BIG NO-NO in trek canon since the 1990s eugenics wars, right...?
They've temporally shifted the eugenics wars so they're no longer in the 90s but post those wars? Yeah. Genetic experimentation is still insanely illegal and taboo to all living hell.
The big temporal shift took place when TNG’s premiere ‘Encounter at Farpoint’ was written to place WW3 and first contact into the mid-late 21st century.
TOS was very specific in saying that the Eugenics War was a precursor to WW3.
Roddenberry wanted to ensure that the franchise’s optimistic future was always a future possibility for viewers. So he insisted that TNG reset the date of WW3.
At the time TNG appeared, there were die-hard gatekeeping TOS fans that argued that this time shift broke canon and meant TNG was in a different universe despite McCoy’s appearance in the premiere.
SNW just confirms the physics of temporal slippage in the Prime timeline as the consequence of all the various intertemporal incursions over the history of the franchise.
I actually did not know that they shifted it. Are the eugenics wars still part of the shifted timeline or were they cut when moving ww3 back?
TNG and all the 90s shows finessed their way around the date of the Eugenics War.
The writers at the time (e.g., Moore & Braga) would rationalize in response to fan questions that the Eugenics War was going on but we just weren’t aware. Or something. But they assiduously avoided dealing with the issue onscreen despite trying to write around other inconsistencies like Klingon foreheads.
So, it was left to SNW’s Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow to spell it all out, including moving Khan’s birth back by decades. It’s worth putting a priority on seeing that episode just for that clarity.
There are allowances for genetic therapies to treat medical conditions, but this probably falls outside of that realm just a bit.
That didn't stop Bashir's parents. If regular parents can make it happen it for their below average child, a Dr Noonian Soong type will be all over it.
Fair enough. Tho I'm sure Janeway would still consider using Tuvix for that one editing your DNA thing.
Spock flat-out said it at the end of "Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2", albeit with a focus on the time travel shenanigans of the second season:
Regulation 157, Section 3 requires Starfleet officers to abstain from participating in historical events. Any residual trace or knowledge of Discovery’s data, or the time suit, offers a foothold for those who might not see how critical, how deeply critical, that directive is.
Therefore, to insure the Federation never finds itself facing the same danger, all officers remaining with knowledge of these events must be ordered never to speak of Discovery, its spore drive, or her crew again, under penalty of treason.
All it would take is a Short Trek where someone rediscovers the network and encounters a group of advanced beings living there, who explain that it has been closed to current warp-capable beings because they have proven themselves not ready for the privilege yet.
Discovery was like Alexander the Great stumbling onto warp drive.
I can look past the mycelial network. I just can't tolerate some of the characters. And unfortunately they decided to focus on one main character. And that character's main feature is to cry throughout the entire series, despite being raised by vulcans. Also the pacing of the show is very annoying. It's high tension drama, all the time.
I watched the whole thing. There were some episodes that kinda gave me hope. Those usually were the ones that weren't part of the main plot. But the next episode it went back to the same dramatic formula.
Oh, and Tilly. What the hell man? How did she get into Starfleet??
That said, I'm happy people enjoy it! It's just not for me.
For that matter, they didn't even use it well at the time. Their accuracy of jumping with the spore drive was shown to be good enough that they could jump inside the shield bubble of every Klingon supply base, launch a bunch of torpedoes, and get out. War = done.
Gotta admit that introducing big fancy transwarp highway in a prequel wasn't the most clever move... Especially considering Voyager...
It requires incredibly specific tech, a ship that has been designed for it, and generic engineering which is outlawed by starfleet. It is also insanely classified and had black badges posted on board.
Whether it's a prequel or not is kinda irrelevant. Secrets are secrets.
Discovery also had hologram communication technology that I guess was also a secret? Starfleet went back to flatscreens for everything and didn't use holograms again until the 24th century.
If it was just one thing, okay, but there were such numerous inconsistencies, it was like the writers and designers did not care about trek, they were writing a sci-fi show with the trek name slapped on top.
It's totally possible to respect the heritage of old sci-fi - look at The Mandalorian and Andor - maintaining consistency with the old retro sci-fi aesthetic actually elevates them above what a modern redesign would have done.
Discovery also had hologram communication technology that I guess was also a secret? Starfleet went back to flatscreens for everything and didn’t use holograms again until the 24th century.
In "The Undiscovered Country" we see the Klingons are watching the Federation President's discussion with Azetbur using a grainy hologram. If they're able to receive a holographic signal, that implies that the Federation is transmitting one. Hell, even in the TOS episode, "Return of the Archons" when confronted with the holographic projection of Landru, Kirk and Spock recognize it for what it is right away, but the things they remark upon are the fact that there's no visible projectors, and Kirk says it's "Beautiful."
I don't think it's too much of a stretch based on what we've see to say that Starfleet decided that holographic projections were too low fidelity compared to viewscreens.
Hell, it even happens again. As you note, they made another attempt at holographic communication in the 24th century, which we see in DS9 the Defiant is kitted out with the new holo-communicator, allowing a fully realized, high fidelity, holodeck quality real time holographic communication. And where else have we seen it? We never see the Enterprise E use that technology; In "Nemesis" Shinzon is able to broadcast a hologram of himself from the Scimitar to Picard's ready room, but he claims it's through the use of his own holo-emitters. We've never seen it in LDecks, PRO, or PIC, all of which take place after DS9.
So yeah, Starfleet went back to flat screens for everything.
You don't have to go very far. There's an episode on Discovery where Pike just goes and say something like "Enough with the problems with holograms! From now on the Enterprise will have only flat screens!"
You’re not wrong, but I do feel like that’s an over correction. They might as well have had text flashing at the bottom of the screen which read, “Sorry for the holograms, we didn’t realize how angry some of you would get.”
It looks much more like a joke. A more veiled version of the Lower Decks people referring to the Kirk's Enterprise as TOS.
And, honestly, I can't understand an implicit "sorry" there at all. It sounds much more like "fuck the purists, our ship is going to look good".
This will forever be a problem every time they set a Star Trek before TOS.
I felt the same way with ENT: it looked too advanced. Of course now I know that's a non-issue, especially after Kelvin.
TNG's and VOY's viewscreens are technically holographic, but the effect is applied inconsistently.
That's a great point. They're certainly at least 3-dimensional, as seen most clearly when someone is on the main viewscreen but their eyeline matches the smaller figures on the bridge, rather than looking more like a zoom window as it would if it was a simple camera-flatscreen configuration.
I've headcanoned it that Discovery was covertly part of a Section 31 collaboration with the Department of Temporal Investigations to test technologies and materials acquired or implied through various temporal incursions, the goal being to see which ones could be arrived at and used without causing potential disturbance to the timeline. The updated look of Federation ships is also a result of that, producing a 23rd century which looks quite different but in which events play out functionally the same.
Discovery also had hologram communication technology that I guess was also a secret?
No, it wasn't secret but that also wasn't invented by Discovery. It was invented by Voyager. Flashback. The episode where Tuvok goes back onboard the Excelsior and they start talking about holographic imagers. Those imagers were created specifically to take holographic image. You cannot take a holographic image without the ability to project a hologram. Moreover, Enterprise showed the crew interacting with holographic technology them. So if you want to complain about inconsistency of holograms in canon, you cannot point the finger so easily at Discovery.
If it was just one thing, okay, but there were such numerous inconsistencies, it was like the writers and designers did not care about trek, they were writing a sci-fi show with the trek name slapped on top.
This complaint gets trotted out constantly. It's tired and old and frankly it's dead. There are no violations of established canon in Star Trek Discovery, as much as everyone wants to say that it is. The only examples I've ever come across from people, and I use the word examples quite wrongly, are the DOTs, Burnham being Spocks sister, Holographic Tech, and the klingons looks.
It simply does not violate canon.
I think to say that Disco has nothing that contradicts established canon is overselling it a bit. But, I will say that all Trek has violated established canon at one point or another, up to and including TOS itself, which was created by people who had no idea at the time that anyone would even remember it some 57 years later, let alone be obsessed with all this minutiae.
If we ignore visual continuity -- which, as a life long comic book reader, I am more than happy to do -- Disco still has some few contradictions here and there, but I will say that it actually toes the line without crossing over it too frequently fairly well, allowing it to have some interesting and new approaches to Trek.
I am honestly drawing a blank on any of these contradictions you're talking about and the only examples I've ever heard I have listed above. Have any?
This is coming off snarky but it's not meant to be. I just genuinely cannot think of any. People say this constantly but no one has ever provided me examples...
The big one -- relatively speaking, of course -- in my mind is the site to site transporting.
In “Day of the Dove”, Kirk asks Spock, ”Intra-ship beaming, is it possible?” and Spock rattled off a litany of reasons why it was considered too dangerous in all but the most necessary circumstances.
However, we see in Disco, starting with “Context is for Kings”, that they can just order the computer to transport them from one room of the ship to another without hesitation.
It’s a minor quibble all things considered. And clearly something most of the Disco detractors aren’t even aware of.
Intra-ship beaming
I don't see that as breaking of canon but a demonstration of situations. They talk about how intra-ship beaming is dangerous but they don't say it isn't possible, just that it is used sparingly and in specific circumstances. Meanwhile Lorca is someone who doesn't give the remotest of fucks about Starfleet and is using it to get home. He's also trying to be secretive and is generally pretty impatient.
So you think going from "This didn't exist yet" to "This existed, it just wasn't used," doesn't in any way cheapen the older stories?
Not for the most part.
I would probably be more annoyed by the Klingon cloaking devices in season one if not for the fact that ship had already sailed when ENT established that the Romulans already had that technology a hundred years before “Balance of Terror”, and oh, so did the Suliban and the XyrIllians whom the crew of the Nx-01 also encountered.
Not to mention there’s a throw away line in one episode of season one about how the sensors are picking up massive power readings but can’t actually pinpoint the ships, and in “Balance of Terror” Spock notes that the Romulans must have figured out a way to bend light around their ship without the tremendous power draw. I have to assume someone on the writing team was trying to square that circle.
But yeah, the idea of a technology existing but not being widely used doesn’t bump me at all. This is like getting mad that when you go into watch the latest Marvel movie and they’re not using Smell-O-Vision. The technology exists! Hell, I can’t remember the last movie I saw in theatre that was 3d. Obviously they still exist, but it’s not a technology that’s really taken off once the gimmick lost its lustre. Or think about how many people, especially young people, prefer to text over talking on the phone.
So yeah, I don’t think anything is cheapened by the idea that a technology exists by is not widely used, and I do think it’s silly that anyone would make that argument.
That's all well and good for the lore, but it doesn't make it feel any less like a way of getting out of the corner they wrote themselves into. It would also probably be little comfort for the version of the Voyager crew that took something like 70 years to get home.
I've enjoyed Discovery. Not as much as other series, but I have enjoyed it. I still think the spore drive is a story that should've been told later in the timeline, though.
They chose to start there. The classified tech was something from the beginning. Same with the tech on board being specific to the ship. In no way did they "write themselves into a corner". Also Janeway is completely irrelevant but also she would have completely understood. This is the woman who destroyed the Caretaker array and has sacrified ways home in order to benefit the majority. Do you honestly think she would ever even bat an eye if she found out about that tech? She'd probably be interested because she's a scientist but then completely understand why it was shelved.
Unless it gave her access to coffee, then she'd install that on the Delta flyer and make weekly secret trips to Seattle to stock up.
I do seriously hate the spore drive though. The travel time is a huge part of what makes a Star Trek episode.
Depends on the episode.
When Quark is abducted from Deep Space 9 in "House of Quark" he's taken clear across the entire Federation and into the Klingon Empire in about a day. And then D'Ghor sends someone to the station to grab Rom and get him back to Qo'noS the next day.
Trek moves at the speed of plot.
The travel time is a huge part of what makes a Star Trek episode.
It is almost never what makes part of a Star Trek episode. Not beyond "We're far away from people for reasons". Besides, a single ship having it and being able to be handicapped isn't exactly something that suddenly shattered everything in Star Trek.
Voyager might want a word ...
It was always a part of it though ... travel times were always there and relevant, the delta quadrant was very far away, getting to the battle in time wasn't always possible, being alone when in trouble was almost always the point ... space hadn't been reduced from a final frontier to an irrelevant playground.
a single ship having it
Well this was part of the contrivance ... once Discovery made it work why wouldn't the whole federation be running spore drives ASAP? Security wise they'd be nearly unstoppable.
And Star Trek was never about human ingenuity coming together to make near-magical technology work? Stamet's DNA changes weren't recorded? They weren't studied and replicated or had the essence of their effect distilled into an interface that mimicked the physical effects?
This all seems like clutching at very untrek-like straws ... which kinda encapsulates the whole issue that some have with Discovery.
I personally don't mind the idea of a mycellial network, or more broadly, some sort of futuristic bio-physics phenomenon/technology. I just think Discovery didn't land the handling of it. I think there are plenty of possible reasons for the spore drive not being used by all of the federation that are more interesting than these "lucky, only one person got the DNA so I guess it's over now" reasons ... reasons that would actually contribute to the Sci-Fi of it all. Like, just shooting from the hip ... it has an immune system that learnt to kick out foreign starships.
The ship was erased from records, the tardigrade found by accident, genetic modifications are pretty much unacceptable to humans... Plenty of other great answers in this thread.
It's funny how people are able to suspend their disbelief for some extremely convoluted things but for something fairly simple like that? Nah, the show is just bad.
but for something fairly simple like that? Nah, the show is just bad.
Ok, why was the ship erased from the records? Why did it have to go into the future? What was the sphere thing again? How were Discovery going into the future again ... couldn't they have just sent the important thing separately? Does Discovery going into the future and being "erased" actually prevent the problem ... which was what ... AI?!
Honestly, I don't know the answer to all of those questions. And as much as I personally liked the idea of doing Trek 900 years in the future (finally, something new in trek), I remember the plot of the backend of season 2 being just a bit too much "what? really?".
I can't break it down, like at all, but I'm personally not convinced at all that Discovery needing to be erased made much sense. Convince me otherwise, please. But also, to anyone else ... do you honestly remember why Discovery had to go into the future and be "erased" ... and even if you do ... does it feel like a good or interesting story point to you? If you answer with at least one "no", then the whole "erased" thing just isn't a good explanation or defence for why the spore drive in a prequel is somewhere between bad and awkward.
Personally, I'd go further and say the whole "erased" thing cant be anything other than contrived ... because it's simultaneously so extreme and completely necessary to handle the issue of the spore drive ... they had to do something like this and it's just too hard to not think about the writers trying to work their way out of the problem. That their reason for needing to be erased and go into the future doesn't seem to have any connection to Discovery or its spore drive, but just happens to have struck the same ship with a spore drive and no other ship, only affirms the contrivance.
Maybe I'm missing something here, it's been a while since I've season 2. But the "erased from the records" plot point might just be a part of the problem we're citing here, not a defence against.
do you honestly remember why Discovery had to go into the future and be “erased"
It was to ensure there was no way for Control (which they were not certain had been eliminated) or anyone else to get hold of the sentient sphere data in their possession. I admit the episodes are a little muddled, but it seemed like the original "Perpetual Infinity" plan had been to go into the wormhole and never emerge, which isn't exactly what happened in the end.
and even if you do … does it feel like a good or interesting story point to you?
Absolutely, I think the 32nd Century is pretty great, and the time jump was the means to that end.
Pssssh, I bet these people don't even realize that reversing the quantum polarity in the nacelles is absolutely a hard science solution to whatever problem the enterprise faces.
(Please don't verbally hit me for that sentence.)
I'm anaspeptic, frasmotic, even compunctious to have caused you such pericombobulation.
Traveller sends the ship at Mach Jesus with his mind? Not a problem.
Stamets pilots the ship through the Mycelial Network using his mind? PROBLEM
I think the big difference is that this is Federation science, not super-being using their superpowers. I like Discovery, as you know, but I think they could have done a lot to handle the idea that no one else has ever used the mycelial network again, not even 900 years in the future, better. I think they could, at the very least, have come up with an explanation for why no other non-Federation empire- not the Klingons or the Romulans or the Cardassians or the Borg or anyone else- ever made the same discovery despite being at basically the same technological level or, in the case of the Borg, at an even higher level. They didn't, but I think they should have. Maybe they will in the new season, but I have a feeling they won't. It by no means ruins Discovery for me, but it could have been handled better.
Discovery, in a way, seems to take place in its own universe. All the other new series seem to ignore the Discovery Klingon look, for instance. In Picard, Worf looked like Worf. In SNW, Klingons in the musical episode looked like TNG Klingons.
I realize it would create continuity problems, especially with Pike, but it wouldn't kill me if they decided by the end of the show that it took place in an alternate universe like the Kelvin movies did.
I guess but I genuinely don't get why people are bothered by others not using it. The tech was made insanely classified and the only two people who ever conceived of the idea are dead. Mentioning of the spore drive was made essentially punishable by death and it was left forgotten to history. Stamets and Straal were never working on it as a propulsion method. They were working on it as an idea in general. Starfleet was the ones that co-opted their really niche research and then classified it to the highest level because they were desperate. The Klingons and the Romulans weren't ever at that state of desperation like the Federation was and if there's one thing that we've seen throughout Trek is that humans excell at pulling things out of their ass when times are beyond perilous. That's our gimmick. Not to mention that the Romulans and Klingons have cloaking tech. We don't. Not like we didn't try. Why can't we have tech that they don't have?
I realize it would create continuity problems, especially with Pike, but it wouldn’t kill me if they decided by the end of the show that it took place in an alternate universe like the Kelvin movies did.
Note for below that I'm not projecting any of this onto you. After writing it it does feel kinda angry. The tone should be read with casual conversation, no hostility pointed towards you or your idea. Just my personal opinion on it. Sorry if it comes off abrasive because that is not the way I mean it.
I get where you're coming from but I can't think of a bigger insult than if CBS/Paramount were to do this. One of the loudest things from people who hate the show are those screaming that Discovery isn't in the Prime Timeline. Started with Season 1 with people arguing that 'CBS doesn't own the rights to the prime timeline' which was the dumbest fucking concept ever devised but ran like wildfire. That whole "It isn't prime" thing still sticks. You see it from people who hate the show even here on Lemmy who refuse to believe that it's canon and act like it isn't. If they suddenly ended the show with something that says it isn't the prime timeline then ignoring the issues it makes for SNW/Lower Decks, they would literally be giving the rage baiting assholes everything they've ever wanted. They would bend over and say "Fine. You were right. It isn't canon." It would invalidate everything that came before it and make all the fans of the show like myself who've defended it feel like utter fools. Honestly if they ever did it? I would abandon Star Trek in its entirety. Would sell off my models, get rid of the flag, and eradicate Trek from my life. It would feel like a slap in the face to the fans to say "Hey, the trolls were right."
I just think expecting it to never be discovered again over 900 years is a little hard to buy. Sure, not having it by TNG works for me, but the fact that this whole mycelial network crosses the galaxy and multiple universes and was never discovered again, even almost a millennium later... I don't know.
A good example- we have no idea what 'Greek Fire,' a secret military technology used by the Byzantines actually was, but we have many ways to recreate what it did through rediscovery of technology.
That said, I realize it's just a TV show. I take your point about it being in the Prime timeline. I just wish there was more reconciliation with the rest of it, like why the Klingons look totally different in Discovery than in SNW and Picard. You can just dismiss that as being the same as the Klingons looking different between TOS and TNG with no explanation (unless you accept the explanation in Enterprise that many people hate), but I still would have appreciated an explanation. For example, I saw it suggested that the Klingon empire was actually more diverse than it seemed and various 'types' of Klingons were in power at various times. So in the TOS era, the "human" Klingons were in charge, in Discovery, the Discovery Klingons were in charge, and in TNG, the TNG Klingons were in charge.
So the "impossibility" of the spore drive doesn't bother me. I just have a hard time with the idea that it was never rediscovered by someone else over many centuries. One solution would have been that everyone was using the spore drive in the future until the planet that the Kaminar guy was on made it impossible instead. It could even have ended differently with the mycelial network becoming unusable, even destroyed, and them having to go back to, maybe even re-engineer ships with warp drive technology. I also suggested above that they could have had Control use a weapon that destroyed the network and it took 900 years to heal. I can just see so many ways around the problem that they could have used but didn't. I don't want to suggest I'm a better writer than they are or anything, Discovery has had some episodes with exceptional writing, I just think this particular story element was handled badly in this specific case.
I think the mushrooms almost feel too... mundane? The average person probably interacts with a lot more mushrooms than crystals. Crystals also have a long history of being associated with magical properties, and modern science has figured out some neat things that can be done with crystalline structures. We're pretty primed for crystals doing cool stuff. Mushrooms have significantly less mysticism associated with them and related science is more biological than technological. That's not really solidly in favor of one or the other, but it does mean the audience will more readily accept crystal hijinks with no warm up than mushroom hijinks with no warmup. The closest comparison to the mycelial network is Yggdrasil, which is solidly in the high fantasy category rather than sci-fi.
All that is to say, I think the mycelial network needed more time to set up than the show gave it. Some kind of foreshadowing, like simply mentioning something about advances in organic technology. Farscape probably would have been able to sell it pretty quick, but Farscape also has organic technology as a core part of the premise with Moya. Not an inherently bad concept, just kind of comes out of nowhere in the context of Trek.
Mushrooms have significantly less mysticism associated with them
Ah yes, psychedelics are famously not associated with mysticism.
The closest comparison to the mycelial network is Yggdrasil, which is solidly in the high fantasy category rather than sci-fi.
The closest comparison is actual fungal networks that exist beneath forests supporting life through the transference of nutrients and biochemical communication, are some of the largest organisms on the planet, and are actual nonfiction science.
All that is to say, I think the mycelial network needed more time to set up than the show gave it.
I think I can agree with you to some extent there. Stamets, by virtue of being standoffish and prickly when the character is introduced, is not the best at explaining things, and the concept could have used a better explanation early on to mitigate the response I'm complaining about with this post.
Ah yes, psychedelics are famously not associated with mysticism.
Might depend on your area? I mostly just associate them with stoners. Mystic folks in my area are really into crystals.
The closest comparison is actual fungal networks that exist beneath forests supporting life through the transference of nutrients and biochemical communication, are some of the largest organisms on the planet, and are actual nonfiction science.
I meant in terms of 'a thing that links worlds together'. Typically, a trans-dimensional plant or plant-like thing is depicted as a tree, patterned off of the mythic Yggdrasil. World trees are also typically a high fantasy thing, since they're mimicking Yggdrasil. The mycelial network is essentially a world tree, or rather a world shroom. It's not exactly an expected trope in sci-fi. Mixing the genres is definitely doable, but you need to get your foot in the door with some shared concepts before you spring a wrong-genre thing on the audience.
I think I can agree with you to some extent there. Stamets, by virtue of being standoffish and prickly when the character is introduced, is not the best at explaining things, and the concept could have used a better explanation early on to mitigate the response I’m complaining about with this post.
Stamets not being a great vehicle for exposition is definitely a problem, but I think the real problem is that season 1 in general has weird pacing. They spent a lot of time getting Burnham situated on the Discovery and the Mirror Universe arc took up a lot of time for how little actually happened in it. They wound up course-correcting near the end of the season by literally skipping ahead a few months on the return trip. I'm sure it's partially a too many cooks situation with the early show's revolving door of showrunners, but the second season did greatly improve in that regard while still having to swap out showrunners mid way through.
My point is, season 1 is kind of wonky structurally.
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Star Trek TNG had a Space Loki on steroids driving key points of the plot so what's the issue with a Space Yggrasil? Star Trek was never supposed to be hard sci-fi in the first place.
Concepts inspired by the idea of the World Tree are also common in other sci-fi works.
I don't like Discovery because of the nonsense with the Klingons. I don't know why they changed their look again, but mostly I like to be able to do other things when watching TV, like cleaning up or making food, and hate the subtitles.
I understand if I'm watching a movie and a scene takes place in France with a bunch of Frenchmen speaking in French accents that "in universe" they are actually speaking French and it's being translated to English for my benefit. The long drawn out subtitled scenes just killed the show for me. Give me a dubbed Discovery and I'll happily give it a go.
I don't pretend to be. It just strains my willing suspension of disbelief beyond the breaking point. I don't even know why it's the spore drive that does it instead of telepathy or fucking Q, but it is.
Star Trek has never been hard science fiction, though.
How is the spore drive any more fantastical than half of what happens in Trek?
Because it doesn't even work in the imagination. A trail of spores going through space? It's an insult to our intelligence and requires far too much suspension of disbelief.
But it's not a trail of spores going through space, and nothing in the show would lead someone who'd been paying the slightest amount of attention to think that's the case.
The mycelial network is a layer of subspace, which the spore drive allows them to access because the specific fungus they cultivate exists partially in subspace. Stamets makes that clear in "Choose Your Pain".
Subspace is entirely made up facilitate the stories that Trek tells. It was first mentioned in "Mudd's Women", the fourth episode of TOS to be produced. It has since served as a means of instantaneous communication across lightyears, as well as long range imaging vis subspace telescope, such as in "The Nth Degree". The sensors aboard the ships also operate via subspace, allowing them to detect things lightyears away, and detect things ahead of them while travelling faster than light.
And we learned in the TNG episode "Schisms" that subspace can support life, and even has beings living there. Or at least some aspects of subspace do.
The spore drive in based on the real science of mycology, and extrapolated through a Trek lens. Nothing about it requires any sort of special property that has not already been established as existing within older episodes of Trek.
The only one insulting your intelligence is yourself by believing you're not creative enough to figure out how the spore drive fits into the larger world of Trek.
I'm not much of a fan of Discovery, as seems to be the case for many Trek fans. It's alright though. But this aspect I found myself enjoying. I liked the whole mycelial network angle.
Yeah, I like Disco because I think they're at least trying to do something, and that's interesting to me. They don't always succeed, but I respect the attempt. However, I fully get why people don't like it.
My issue is with the silly complaints, not what amounts to a matter of taste.
I thought the issue with Discovery was that it was written like a schlocky action movie and the crew are constantly at each other's throats
Schlocky action is a matter of opinion (one I vehemently disagree with) but the crew at each others throats thing is pure nonsense. That happened in the first two episodes. From then on there were occasional disagreements but that's sort of expected. Constantly? That's a lie.
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Here we have an example of the discovery crew going at each other's throats. This poor Emperor just wants to rule and her second in command is always going after her. This is from season 3. Also I'm just being a smartass to tease Stamets.
You have no idea how easily you just activated the "Fuck you just say, bitch?" response deep within me.
It's amazing, sometimes the complaint is that Disco is written like an action movie, and sometimes it's that it's written like a drama where the characters are overly emotional. I'm impressed that the writers have managed to create Schrodinger's televisions show, where it's in a quantum state of being whatever the person complaining about it needs it to be so long as they're able to drive a narrative of it being bad.