Its hard to imagine how it could dive down even further but to their credit those mossad lads are clever propagandists. But I don't know like.
Sadly war sucks ass.
If it was a command post then there must be a path for Israel to attack. It’s not like Hamas gets to use “one weird trick” to exclude their command center from being a valid target.
If Israel thought it was a military target, did every thing else right, but sucked up then it’s a sucky product of urban war.
If Israel knew it was really only a hospital and attacked anyway — then they are morally and strategically fucked. Rightfully so. (Kinda like how other countries have also overreacted to a terrorist attack and gone after the wrong target).
And of course the reality of all this probably doesn’t matters because a large number of people make up their mind first and from then on ignore and other intelligence even when it’s gathered.
as usual with this shit show of a conflict, it seems both sides are awful: hamas used the hospital as a command post which means israel has to be able to attack it, however attacking it with indiscriminate shelling is absolutely unacceptable
both entities are completely unacceptable… debating which one is more so is outrageous, and if anyone “sides” with either one they’re morally corrupt, brainwashed, or too stupid to comprehend anything but binaries
The thingis that often siding with the people in Gaza who are living in hell rightnow is intentionally misunderstood as siding with Hamas.
oh 100%!
and there are so many disingenuous arguments going around like “they voted for hamas! fuck around and find out!”… well, if you think that then you don’t get to complain about american politics (as most people do): https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/01/majority-palestinians-gaza-elect-hamas/
they voted for hamas…
The fact that a lot of people ignore that the Palestinians fought a civil war precisely to not have Hamas in power and lost Gaza to a Hamas takeover after the last election (2006) tells you that the zionist propaganda engines are well oiled and working.
Plus, that there was a protest against Hamas before the pandemic that had to be forcibly suppressed.
Using a hospital as a hostage and bombing a hospital are two acts so beyond the pale that it's pointless to argue which is worse. Both are incredibly fucked up.
Are we still talking about the hospital all the video footage is from? The video footage of a hospital thats in one piece and not shelled? Are you talking about the one missile that hit a carpark and was probably a misfire from Palestine?
Sadly war sucks ass.
Don't try to justify the mass murder of innocent, injured and sick civilians, including children and infants. There's literally nothing that excuses dropping bombs on hospitals. And schools. And trucks full of refugees. And people's homes. And ambulances.
It is interesting how the same US political ideology that supports this mass murder of children are, generally, also the ones who consider zygotes to be children and criminalize pregnant women for having miscarriages. But I digress.
The point is, it's all a bullshit power play, don't let it distract you from your own humanity.
It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.
These days we have no excuse, either to go to war, or to allow for conditions in which acts of war would be an appropriate (if desperate) response.
War remains a sign that irrational, irresponsible people are still allowed to take positions of power. And so long as we cannot stop that nonsense, it is an indictment of our species, that we may not be able to adequately civilize and govern ourselves with reason, rather are yet another species of ape that is going to run its course before going extinct.
those mossad lads are clever propagandists
I believe Mossad is special forces and intelligence gathering, not PR/propaganda dissemination. These are the agencies you're thinking of. That's like saying Navy Seals or the CIA are responsible for white house press briefings.
I honestly wonder what the fuck every israeli intel agency was doing, it as the anniversary of the Yom Kippur war, how did they not see SOMETHING coming is beyond my ability to comprehend
Evil tongues suggest they might have been looking away.
I also find it weird how Israel claims since 5 weeks theyd be shelling thousands of terrorist targets, having intricate knowledge of where these are. But apparently Israel didnt notice anything unusual happening there that would indicate an imminent attack...
I remember the discussions in the months prior to Russia invading Ukraine, where activities were noticed to prepare the attack and question was, if Russia is going to or not.
How the fuck are invasion preparations on known sites in a tiny and well surveilled totally surrounded are not noted?
Based on what I have read the Oct 7 attack was not planned through known sites, possibly by word of mouth.
Russia has a lot more equipment to move via logistics than Hamas does for guerilla attacks, they amassed on the Ukraine border before the invasion.
They used, among other things: over 5.000 rockets, drones, anti-tank launchers, anti-air launchers, motorized paragliders, dozens of cars and thousands of firearms.
You cannot amass these things by "word of mouth". And if Israel didn't know where these 5.000 rockets were launched from, then their claim about knowing where all the terrorist targets would be, seems not very believable.
You cannot amass these things by “word of mouth”.
One certainly could. The biggest, most complicated war in human history was waged long before the internet was created, all logistics needed coordinated offline.
if Israel didn’t know where these 5.000 rockets were launched from
They were launched from Gaza.
"Truly this is the bottom"
Conservatives everywhere brandishing shovels: "Challenge accepted"
Dang dude, I guess everyone upset over the October 7th Hamas attacks are "pearl clutching" because Israelis died. "It's just war, bro"
I believe they are referring to the selective outrage that this conflict has generated. Far more innocent civilians have been killed in places like Syria, Tigray, Yemen and Ukraine, but none of them, not even Ukraine, has generated anywhere near the amount of outrage among parts of the left as has the situation in Gaza.
Not even Ukraine? Man I still see people flying Ukraine flags all over my very suburban neighborhood. In a way I certainly don't for Palestine, or Israel for that matter.
I don't see how that diminishes anything from the current situation in Palestine. Honestly it kind of feels like a cop out way to pretend not to care. "It's happening in these places, too, so calm down" seems like a strange way to show support for other oppressed people's.
Ukraine was all over my circles, real and online. Maybe you hung around a different crowd?
All I know is I have heat, fresh water, plenty of food, and today is my day off. The last people who were indiscriminately killed on these lands was 200 years ago and the biggest looming threat is NAZIs who I am not a target of other than my controversial political speech.
Can I be the most callous now? There are millions of us.
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Just wait until they find out about the Iraqi war. 1 million dead civilians. We technically committed genocide based on a lie.
No one from that administration has been held accountable despite us now knowing that they knew it was a lie at the time (WMDs). If there was any justice Dick Cheney would have been hung long ago.
I like your outlook. Besides your general observation of the Lemmy hivemind, let us know what you think about the conflict itself
It's like everyone's opinion is "my tribe is always right and deserves all the sympathy, the other tribe is always wrong and deserves all the suffering". No one cares about solutions or examining why a conflict has persisted for 80 years. Humans are so predictable.
And if it turns out that the accusation Hamas was using the basement as a command post is true, is that the new bottom?
Using the hospital for anything other than helping people is a bottom. They are both trash entities.
And fun fact: bombing/attacking a hospital is not a war crime per the Geneva Conventions Article 52, if it is being used as a military objective.
Might be a fun fact but it is not correct. Article 52 of the fourth convention is not related to hospitals. Article 52 of the 1st additional protocol is related to hospitals and it does not mean what you are saying it does. Geneva conventions do not define war crimes, that definition is given in the ICC Rome statutes.
Fair enough. The ICC Rome Statute specifically refers to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949. But per the ICC Rome statute on war crimes, Article 8, Section 2, Subsection (b), Clause (ix), the following is a war crime: "Intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected,provided they are not military objectives;"
Still the collateral damage needs to be proportional and adequate measures need to be taken to minimise civillian casualties.
So at least they would need to be able to evacuate. But Israel intentionally destroyed ambulances, cut water, electricity, fuel and communications, so it is impossible to evacuate the hospital. Israel did everything to make sure the civillian casualties will be high and that is nothing but a war crime and heinous murder.
https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-gives-hospitals-gaza-hours-evacuate
According to the Hamas propaganda Israel literally gave a one month head start on that demand when they did not control the area around the hospital.
“Israeli occupation asked the administrations of two hospitals, al-Awda and al-Quds in the north and centre of Gaza, to evacuate staff, sick people, and displaced people”.
We are talking about al-Shifa now. Your source does not support your claim.
What about finding tunnels, weapons, bombs and having terrorists hiding and firing from within the hospital compound? Is that enough or does Hamas need to put up a sign reading "military objective" at the entrance?
I mean they DID find like 9 guns and a calendar we were told was a hostage watching schedule.... so yea totally needs to be nuked just to be sure. /s
Oh ok phew. I didn't know it wasn't a war crime per the Geneva convention article 52. Keep bombing those infants, baby! Woohoo!
Israelis regularly voted Netanyahu and that even last year despite him being head over heels in dozens of currpotion scandals.
There were five hung elections in a row where he couldn’t form a majority before he was able to form this government. Israel has only ever had one majority government (that is, not a coalition of parties) from 1968-1969, well before Likud was even established and while Bibi was still serving in the military. Likud has literally never held a majority in the Knesset. How can you so ardently state that Israelis “voted Netanyahu”, especially when they’re a multiparty Westminster parliamentary representative democracy whose parliamentary leaders elect the Prime Minister? Come on, mate.
Are you implying that Israel is not a democracy and the government is not democratically legitimised?
The coalition government is formed by a majority coalition. And people know that, so in their vote they consider the possible coalitions. Also Netanyahus coalition partners are by all acounts even worse criminals, demanding genocide in Gaza, nuking Gaza, forcefully displacing allPalestinians in the Westbank etc.
There is a majority in Israel that voted the current government and by all means they knew beforehand what they would get.
I’m suggesting that saying that the fact that Netanyahu is the Prime Minister is in any way indicative that a majority of Israelis personally support him as a leader is a laughable concept. He’s not elected by popular vote; he wins his own electorate and then a majority of other people who won their electorates voted him into the job.
His party, Likud, has never held an absolute majority. Therefore, never has 50% or more of the electorate directly voted for Netanyahu or the party he represents.
After the shit-shamble of the last five elections, Israeli voters have had less idea of what coalition would form government than they ever had. Suggesting that a majority of Israelis personally endorse Netanyahu is not reasonable.
A Nov. 3 poll found 76% of Israelis want Netanyahu to resign. On Nov. 7, a leading pro-Netanyahu newspaper reversed its stance and ran an editorial calling for his ouster after the war. Polls taken last month show Netanyahu would lose if elections were held now.
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/11/1211767117/israel-netanyahu-growing-opposition-hamas-war-gaza
I mean, that makes a certain degree of sense, because if using protected places as a place to put one's military operations doesn't remove that protection, then it would become a common strategy to intentionally use vulnerable civilians as shields in that manner, and since no military is realistically going to just let their opponent attack them without a response when capable of delivering one, such a scenario would just lead to the whole idea of places like hospitals being protected being abandoned.
Ehm, both have been killing for decades. Palestine consistently had about 10x the losses Israel had.
Both are trash but one has been killing for decades...
Hm, either that is not really your point or you are remarkably bad at putting it into words.
I mean terrorism and putting innocents at risk is bad. But this comes because of almost a century of oppression and death so it is expected at this point. You defend yourself whichever way you can I guess. I am from a colony, so I know shit can get desperate.
You be the judge if I'm bad with words (spoiler: I am anyway) or if I just have a bad take.
I mean what's worse: using a human shield, or deciding "nah fuck them kids shoot through them anyway."
What if they were shooting your kids while hiding behind their own? Would you let them keep doing it while insisting that reprisals are off limits?
Yeah, this is the problem I'm having with people picking sides. It's a giant crap-pile of the worst of humanity. People act like there's a good side. Nah, everything's a mess of generational hatred and I hate it all.
There needs to be a cease-fire. Hamas needs to release all hostages and then be permanently removed from power in Gaza, and Israel needs to help the Palestinians rebuild what has been destroyed, burry their dead with dignity and respect, and heavily compensate the families of those who have died.
The whole thing is out of control
That may be so, but Israel clearly has the upper hand right now. It's within their power to put the breaks on. I understand the depth of their rage after what Hamas did, but they shouldn't soothe their sorrow with the blood of innocents
Well said. The only angels here are the innocents being slaughtered. The belligerents are all devils.
For sure. It's hard to know what's true and what isn't. All we know is what the media tells us. Hopefully we'll know at some point
Interesting that you mentioned the removal of Hamas from power but not the current Isreali government.
If polling is accurate, they will be voted out soon enough. To remove Hamas one needs the ammo box, as they have removed the ballot box as an option.
True, but it doesn't require killing civilians to accomplish. Just assassinate the Hammas leadership until there's no one left who wants to risk it. Mossad is pretty good at tracking people down.
Cut off the head and the body will die.
But, that's pretending that Israel just wants to protect itself instead of looking for an excuse to genocide.
OOOoh now I understand! Just kill Hamas, it's easy! Wish we'd thought of that sooner. Wow, war must be a breeze. No innocents ever die in wars!
If we wanted a genocide it would have happened a hell of a lot quicker. Bombing the places where the refugees are gathered, for example, instead of telling them to get out of harm's way.
The whole situation is fucked, and war is fucked. There are no easy answers.
Sure that can change, too. I don't live there, so it didn't come to mind. My desires mean nothing to anyone by me- but I want the violence to stop.
I can't imagine that the Israeli people so close to the border are just totally fine with what happened to the civilians and likely would want their government overhauled- but again, I don't live there. I only know what the media as told me, and I acknowledge that all that could even be a lie.
It's messy
Indeed it is messy. But "removing" Hamas from power is about as easy as "removing" Bibi and his cabal from power. They feed off each other, and blame each other just enough to sway their populace into letting them stay in power.
The problem isn't as easily fixed as "just take Hamas... and put it over there".
There's an infinite spectrum between "not shooting children" and "letting the other guy shoot yours"
Also, this "oh we're so much better and civilized" act really falls short when it has to be explained to you why shooting children is still bad even when you do it.
False dilemma. There are ways to react that don't involve shooting children.
Even if there weren't, I wouldn't say "yeah shoot some children."
You're misrepresenting my position. It's, "yeah definitely shoot the terrorist, try to avoid shooting their hostages if you can."
My dude, you're arguing that a certain amount of shooting children is okay. If you can't see how this is a problem I don't know what else to say.
As are you? If they don't take out the military targets, kids die. It's essentially lose lose for the civilans, but one course of action leads to bot prolonging child murder.
Nope. Preemptive killing is not justifiable. No children are saved by the killing of these children.
In fact all that is being done is assuring the next generation of terrorists.
Wouldn't proportionality be a thing here? Reprisals would be acceptable if they did not result in a disproportionate loss of innocent civilians. Unfortunately it seems like Palestinian children's lives are much cheaper than Israeli lives. I hate saying it because I think all children deserve protection regardless of the actions of the people in power, be it hamas or idf.
Also the comparision isnt Palestinian children vs Israeli children. It is Palestinian children vs. grown armed men and women aka Soldiers.
Israel could have worked with insurgencies to target Hamas specifically, without having to bomb everything to rubble. That would have risked more soldiers lives though.
So they are weighting their soldiers lifes at a rate of about 200 Palestinains of which 80 are children.
For comparision. In WW2 about 4 Ally soldiers died for one civillian death in the Axis and about 6 Ally civillians, mostly Chinese, Polish, Ukranian and Russian, died for every Axis soldier. So the war of total annhilation, with death squads eradicating entire villages and concentration camps for mass murder still had a much lower rate of civillian to military deaths.
But they’re not. Unless you’re claiming all Palestinian kids are Hamas, and then if you are, or if your ready to punish an entire people for the actions of an extremist group, you’re committing war crimes and are well on your way to Genocide.
So maybe a more tactical approach would be better for everyone.
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Hamas barely has any power against Israel and two wrongs don't make a right. Killing children is off limits period. Dosen't matter who is hiding behind them. Also the children are not Hamas's kids. If you decide to shoot a innocent child you deserve go to hell there is no buts.
Hamas barely has any power against Israel
Indeed. It would be nice if they would acknowledge the reality of their situation. Maybe they would release the hostages, lay down arms, and sue for peace, if they acknowledged as you do that they don't have any hope against winning against Israel with violence.
the children are not Hamas’s kids.
The children that they hide behind are Palestinian children. Hamas is the government of Gaza and every citizen there is under their jurisdiction and control until they are deposed; i.e., "theirs."
two wrongs don’t make a right
War is always ethically shitty, but I see no other option for Israel at this point. If they don't meet violence with violence and achieve meaningful objectives to keep themselves safe in response to Hamas' mass slaughter, it's just begging for more of the same in the future. War is what happens when deterrence fails, perhaps this will serve as an example to those who would consider attacking Israel next time of the consequences.
If you decide to shoot a innocent child you deserve go to hell there is no buts.
Israel's intention is not to shoot children being used as shields. It is to neutralize the one shooting from behind them, even if there's significant risk of hitting a human shield. This devalues the strategy and discourages such people from using human shields in the future. It's the same reason one does not negotiate for hostages, it encourages future hostage taking. You let this be a viable strategy that deters reprisal, expect more of it.
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I don't want to flame but I am just going to put this here: A person was faced with the choice to kill a innocent child or not do anything. They chose to kill a innocent child. Doesn't matter who is behind them you still shot to kill the child. They deserve to burn.
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No you killed a child period. This has nothing to do with your child dying. Killing a child dosen't stop your own child from being killled.
Hamas barely has any power against Israel
I mean this is demonstrably untrue considering the attack where they killed and kidnapped hundreds of innocents.
That doesn't make Israel's response even remotely justifiable of course. But Hamas is not some plucky rebel group throwing pebbles. They're dangerous and need to be removed from power in a method that doesn't kill babies.
Yes? What kind of question is that? If you answer no to that you're saying I'm no better than them, and if you're ok with that then what is your moral high ground here?
really? you would let them continue killing your kids? tell me you don't have kids without telling me you don't have kids 😆
How good of you to put words in my mouth. I would not kill your children if you killed mine. You're fair game but I'm not gonna shoot your children and any other children nearby to get to you. This is not a tricky moral question.
question was:
What if they were shooting your kids while hiding behind their own?
and your reply was
yes
albeit with a question mark, but you followed by explicitly refuting the "no" answer
If you answer no to that you’re saying I’m no better than them, and if you’re ok with that then what is your moral high ground here?
what exactly am i putting in your mouth?
I don't know how to explain to you that it's wrong to kill their kids even if they've killed your kids. Especially when you seem determined to misconstrue anything I write.
Would you let them keep doing it while insisting that reprisals are off limits?
Yes
Nice of you to value their citizens' lives above your own. I doubt that will be much of a consolation for your countrymen that you're willing to sacrifice to violence. Expect more human shields in the future now that you've proven the tactic so effective.
What kind of question is that?
A moral dilemma.
If you answer no to that you’re saying I’m no better than them, and if you’re ok with that then what is your moral high ground here?
If you answered no to that I'd say you're honestly assessing the grim realities of war, where the goal is to pacify the enemy without sacrificing your own people, even if that may result in collateral damage.
Nice of you to value their citizens’ lives above your own.
the question wasn't about your citizens, it was about your kids. which makes his answer even more laughable.
For purposes of this conversation you can use citizens, civilians, and children interchangeably. All are examples of collateral damage, and many of Hamas' human shields will fit into multiple categories.
For purposes of this conversation you can use citizens, civilians, and children interchangeably
no, you cannot, read the conversation again.
most people have closer relationship to their own kids than to some other random co-citizen. so if some clown claims, for a sake of his argument, that he would be willing to sacrifice his own kids to protect... literally anyone else, you know he is a moron, or a liar. or both.
All are examples of collateral damage, and many of Hamas’ human shields will fit into multiple categories.
sure, but that was not the point of my remark.
I would resign on the spot if I ever got an order like that. I don't care if Nazis are resurrecting Hitler in the basement of the hospital, I can't trade babies and children as acceptable collateral.
They had tunnels under it and the Israelis needed an excuse for having hit a Hospital when they were carpet bombing. So, no, there was no command post. No one shall ever be shown anything but the photos which could have been taken anywhere. None of which would change the bottom that bibi and hamas are the same picture.
Demanding an evacuation of a hospital full of patients, under the threat of bombardment, only for those patients to die of complications for not being treated, this is just a more silent mass murder.
It would be cool if Hamas didn't fire rockets from the vicinity of schools of hospitals though wouldn't it?
There's definitely no possibility that Israel does stuff like that and then blames it on its enemies to justify its actions. No way.
LMAO, wait, your argument is that Hamas doesn't use human shields, and it's all Israeli propaganda?
Hamas has been openly, proudly discussing their use of the Palestinian civilians a human shields for... Basically forever.
This isn't unique to Hamas, it's a common trait of all jihadist groups. Innocent victims are rewarded for their faith in heaven, and evil victims are punished in hell. So I'm their warped mind there's no moral consequence for murdering or endangering civilians. Please let that sink in before you continue to support them.
It would be cool if the counter battery from a highly technical country hit the rockets instead of collapsed the building. Which is entirely possible.
To people saying it's justified because Hamas are hiding there, if Hamas wants to kill as many Israelis as possible they could hide in a Israeli hospital and the IDF, being consistent, would bomb it just the same since it now became a military target. Right?
Yeah, you know they wouldn't, not the same way at least. Somehow Palestinians are an acceptable collateral while Israeli, specially Jews, would never be. That's how you know this isn't about Hamas.
Except Hamas is the government in Gaza and can setup pretty much whatever situation it wants to there, while it is hated in Israel outside of Gaza and would be prevented from taking an Israeli hospital and constructing elaborate tunnels under it. That's kind of like saying "If Russia wants Ukraine so bad, why doesn't it just take Kyiv?" Because it can't. There's a bunch of obstacles stopping it, otherwise it obviously would.
I don't think your comparison holds up as the double standard you think it is. Isreal have been bombing locations that potentially hold their own civilians being held as hostages.
Can't tell if you're just trying to sound ironically dumb or not?
Israel would storm it's own hospital with troops as would any other country. Bombs were used in Gaza before there was security on the ground. Dropping special forces off in the middle of Hamas held territory would turn into Black Hawk Down 2
You think Israel would just let them take one of their hospital in the first place ? Why would that happen in the first place ? There would be an immediate military intervention , before they are deeply embedded
In Palestine tho, hamas does what it wants. And nobody is there to stop them. So they already are in the hospitals, and in the streets leading to hospital, and watching the neighborhood where those are.
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Who would think that in a war, the people opposing you would be treated differently than your own people? This is the reality of war and not specific to this conflict.
The question is do Jewish people expect mercy from the one above? Or do they think the lord is someone they'll explain themselves to and is supposed to be their friend and just be like yeah sweet? Like imagine how disappointed that a higher power or super intelligence would be 🤣
That's because apparently someone decided, without discussion, that setting military headquarters in a hospital - where babies are born - is absolutely fine and moral move.
He said, believing the IOF, who has killed Palestinians with absolute impunity, and lying through the teeth about it
What would convince you? Based on what I can glean from various sources, it seems at least likely that the claim is true. I also don't see what incentive the Israelis have to lie about it.
While it does seem plausible. You don't see what incentive the Israelis have to lie about it? Really?
Well think about it for a moment. What I mean is that they already know that they will be accused of lying regardless, so why bother "fabricating" an ambiguous account when they could just as easily lie and claim that they found a giant Hamas command center?
In other words, they have no incentive to lie about the attack having achieved ambiguous results unless they are actually telling the truth. If you are going to lie, and if you know you won't be believed regardless, why not go whole hog?
Again, they have no incentive to half-ass it unless they're simply stating the truth.
If they don't have something believable then the Boycott, Divest, and Sanction movement will cut off their Western support and see them on trial in the Hague.
Getting the lie right or persuading the world they really really did believe this has literal existential consequences for the politicians and generals.
OMG Guys a large hospital has maintenance tunnels!
Until they release the drone footage of a command center down there it's just infrastructure they're making shit up about.
Killing a building full of women and children to go after a group of people who may or may not be in said building after they killed women and children...
Two unscrupulous groups are willing to murder innocent civilians. Sounds like two groups of terrorists.
Fuck Hammas, fuck the IDF. I'm absolutely fine with them killing each other. I'm not okay with the fact that they're both using innocent civilians as pawns.
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Yea there’s no consensus that the ‘evidence’ produced is reliable. At first IDF showed the hatch to a water cistern and said it was the hatch to the network of tunnels. This new photo could just be a hole in the ground. The tour through the MRI room and truck loaded with weapons could be easily planted. Independent investigations like Forensic Architecture have found discrepancies and raised questions over the legitimacy of IDFs claims. Al Jazeera has reported that IDF had misreported facts to build a narrative.
US intelligence agrees that Hamas was operating out of the hospital, but there not much else backing up these claims right now.
**edited to remove a bad source
"Cobb-Smith has joined with the most politicized anti-Israel NGOs in pushing false or unsubstantiated accusations of Israeli violations of the laws of war [...] In particular, he circulated false claims (“there was no tactical reason; there was no reasonable use of that weapon system”) as well as claims (later discredited) that the IDF used white phosphorous “in an illegal manner.” Similarly, he has been involved with the campaigns of the anti-Israel NGO known as Forensic Architecture.
Oh okey, I understand better what you mean by "not much to back those claims"
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I did some quick searches on him and saw he was with amnesty international. This didn’t come up for me. I’ll remove him as a reference. Appreciate the insight to him.
They pulled that from a site called NGO-Monitor. It's a right wing Israeli outlet that exists specifically to dismiss claims from international NGOs. It's about as credible as the government itself denying it committed crimes.
Except there's very credible evidence Israel uses WP illegally. There's literally photos of it available online. Is that the IDF calling him biased or what?
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/ngo-monitor-bias/
Overall, we rate the NGO Monitor Right biased based on support for the right-wing Israeli government. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting based on the consistent promotion of pro-Israeli propaganda
"IDF says..."
Of course. What reason would they have to lie? /s
Maybe we should wait until there's been a more neutral investigation before deciding it's one hundred percent true.
What I never understand about major news stories is that so many people take everything they see at face value and then consider it indisputable fact. When there's an international war going on, no one thinks that just maybe we're only getting a fraction of reality communicated to us? That it must be the worst game of telephone in terms of accuracy? But then if someone even suggests that maybe there's more to the story, they're conspiracy theorists or they get told what "side" they're on.
We should all be at least somewhat discerning. There's so many different actors with interests in this war. We have no idea what else could be going on that we will never, ever hear about, nor how much spin is being put on the stuff we do hear about.
Do you really think only you had this thought? Don't you think this is exactly what I think about your opinions? And telling this in my face literally does nothing because I am just as convinced that you gobble up Al-Jazeera/Hamas propaganda as, supposedly, I am gobbling up Israeli propaganda?
Come down to Earth buddy
You are wildly bad faith all over the comments, wow.
You went too "down to earth" and need to pull your head outta sand or whatever dark hole you have it shoved into.
I mean independently verified. The idf has a history of lying and some of the stuff mentioned in that article has already been disproven.
What's your explanation for the video in the article? AI-generated? Doctor's fire exit? Aliens?
Wow, a tunnel near a hospital. There's tunnels under my university too. Should the idf siege it?What I'm asking for is clear evidence that Hamas was using the hospital as a command center. I still haven't seen any of that.
Go ahead. Maybe release another phone convo between Hamas militant one and Hamas militant 2?
Perhaps get them to send you their hostage watching schedule / calendar that the IDF was showing off as evidence too. Or the the mysteriously multiplying guns and "one take" "no editing" english video that has edits in it...
Putting aside the lack of evidence of this, and the Israeli government's history of being caught lying about this kind of thing, how many civilians is it defensible to kill per Hamas militant, and does the calculus change if they're children?
...or are we taking the super credible IDF line and saying the infants are Hamas militants?
Putting aside existing evidence for it
There isn't a specific count. Just like there is no count for "how many Russian civilians has to die for each Ukrainian soldier". Israel didn't ask this war, Hamas did. Hamas is in charge of Gaza, not Israel.
You understand that the Israeli government funded Hamas over the PLO, don't you? Netanyahu signed the death warrant on his own citizens to create the pretext for the genocide he's now accelerating - Netanyahu and the Israeli government did ask for this war.
I must have missed the part of the Geneva Conventions that says, "unless they started it."
Oh wait, no I didn't. Because it's not fucking there.
Israel at least has a government and a democracy, and the government even has been somewhat honest with the NSO group and their crappy spyware tools - though I'm not sure why any of this needs to involve bombing hospitals or why "a functional democracy" has to be defended with such fervour, but hey at least we can hold onto the hope that democracy itself will mean that there will be a degree of accountability for those in power
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We need a hell of a lot more evidence to support that than we've seen, it would still run into major problems with proportionality/distinction standards regarding all the civilians they killed in and around the hospital, and it wouldn't make a scratch with regard to the other civilian infrastructure they've targeted.
So then when terrorists use human shields, which in this case include literal babies, it's okay to ignore the human shields and just indiscriminately attack?
I didn't say "it was okey". I said i do understand why that happens. I am also saying Israel takes some steps to limit the number of civil victims, while Hamas takes none
Hamas has a different agenda. It's an asymmetrical conflict. The intention of Hamas and Hezbollah is to provoke Israel into a genocide. Hiding among the trees to incite Netanyahu to burn down the forest.
They want nothing more then to get on video Israeli forces massacring thousands of Palestinian civilians.
So for Hamas, it's Christmas.
The goal of Hamas is not to provoke isreal into a genocide, it's to make people think israel is committing a genocide. It's definitely working.
Not bombing a hospital.
I'm not an expert. So I'd defer to Lt. General James Glynn, survivor of Fallujah on how to approach the situation in Gaza.
I'd also refer to centuries of counter-insurgency that notes that massacring civilians only drives more recruits to the enemy cause, often recruits who are willing to engage in suicide missions.
Even leaving the hospital intact and doing nothing was a better option, and in fact, Israel is not fighting a war of desperation, and can actually afford to approach violence with deliberation and consideration.
The reason Netanyahu is behaving like Trump or George W. Bush is because he likes the idea of rushing in with stormtroopers and crushing the enemy, not because it's actually a good idea. And that's why Hezbollah provoked him in the first place.
I am not a fan of Netanyahu/Trump/Bush neither, however you only described what not to do.
I am still convinced that taking out Hamas out of Gaza is the viable long term solution. I don't know about the hospital, and believe IDF knows better than me
Actually I said doing nothing would be better than what they did so that is, compared to bombing a hospital, a viable alternative.
Getting Hamas out of Gaza is going to be like getting white supremacists out of the US. It's virtually impossible, but when the hearts and minds of the public are not pissed off due to poor governance, they can be reduced to a fringe group.
So if Israel stopped its thousand-year religious resentment plan, provided relief and then promoted equal treatment of the Palestinian public (installed enforcement of civil rights) that would do a tuckfun to reduce the significance of Hamas, Hezbollah or any other terrorist groups Iran or Russia might throw into the mix.
But this requires the right-wing identity groups in Israel giving up their ethnostate and modernizing their attitude — what is a challenge even for the EU and US (though the US stopped trying over a century ago).
So I'm going to watch Israel bath Gaza in the blood of Palistianians and make the rest of the world sick to their stomachs, and we'll all promise, yet again, never to let this happen, to never forget.
See, the consequences of Israel jackbooting like every other imperialist is built into the paradigm. Sadly it'll also add fuel to the antisemitic fires already igniting across the world. The thing is, Netanyahu and the IDF have bought the ticket to ride, as if no lives they cared about were actually in the balance.
First of all, you're either ignorant or an idiot if you think what Israel is doing is "indiscriminate".
More importantly, what's your superior moral alternative when a force breaches borders, murders hundreds, and takes and holds hundreds more as hostages, and then retreats to the cover of hospitals and schools in a dense city?
Does that force come from a people who've been deprived of everything, forced into a system of apartheid, robbed of their freedom and routinely bullied, tortured and killed for half a century?
That seems to be an important factor to just leave out of the equation.
"Pick up the gun.." - Bill Hicks
No. Obviously? And it's irrelevant. There's no symmetry here.
If Hamas puts down their guns there would be peace.
If Israel puts down there guns there would be no Israel.
More importantly, what's your superior moral alternative when a force breaches borders, murders hundreds, and takes and holds hundreds more as hostages, and then retreats to the cover of hospitals and schools in a dense city?
Let's do a little thought experiment here. Say that everything happened exactly as before except this time they retreated and hid inside Israeli hospitals and schools, on the Israeli side of the border, full of Israeli citizens. Do you think Israel would attack those terrorists in the same way?
Probably not, because those would be THEIR hospitals. There would be no tunnel system, no munitions stores, etc etc.
Your "gotcha" thought experiment is asking whether or not a country should treat the enemy country with equal caution to their own. Did you even consider it before asking it?
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Does no one remember the 1 million innocent Iraqis we killed based on a lie?
I would argue that is the most recent rock bottom we have come to since world war II.
We bombed people in their homes relentlessly. They were not going after military targets, it was an indiscriminate slaughter of mostly innocent people. Hundreds of thousands of children.
We have committed genocide purely for profit and power, very recently. Remember that when our government tries to defend Israel's actions. They are following our playbook.
There have been leaked conversations from Israeli officials stating that the war between them and Hamas helps them maintain power over Israeli citizens. They are creating more terrorists on purpose to leverage control over their people. What else happens when your family gets eradicated in a bombing? You go after those that are responsible, and joining Hamas is the easiest route to exact your revenge on those who killed your family.
That study was pulled for being ridiculous. The Iraq Body Count Project estimates 7300 civilian deaths over a far larger operations area, with far more forces involved, March 21 to May 1.
Do people think Hamas wouldn't hide in a hospital? Theyve proved many times civilians aren't a concern
Do people think that there can't be two bad guys in a story? This isn't a good vs evil fight.
Do people think that there can’t be two bad guys in a story?
You're not going to like the answer...
Really disappoints me.
In some ways, this might reflect the futility of multi party systems. At the end of the day, coalitions of multiple groups are still split into two camps of government and opposition. We have to stop seeing every conflict as us vs them.
Tbf you'd have to invade the hospital to clear out the Hamas fighters using it as a base, especially if they were forcing it on the hospital staff
That or lay siege to it but uh... that'd be about as effective as issuing another round of sanctions on Iran at this point.
Ok, think it though. What happens when you bomb and invade a hospital filled with civilians?
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To not kill babies and people in hospital care. Innocent life is never worth the victory, no matter what the propganda has told you.
When you have time to get off your unicorn and enter the mortal realm where the rest of us live, please present to us a plan to solve this conflict that results in 0 dead kids. We are waiting, as is your Nobel peace prize.
So because I don't have the solution to fix everything with a neat little bow on top kids should die? Nice
"We cannot guarantee children will not die so any suggestion we take actions to avoid it as much as possible are entirely unrealistic."
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Anyone who supports murdering children is terrible. All the time. There's no excuse from anyone to support murdering children regardless of who they think might be hiding among them.
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Sure just tell the civilian dressed militants to not shoot from civilian populated areas.
You think those babies were getting the medical help they needed? All the fuel and supplies being redirected to Hamas fighters and their control of the building making normal work impossible was killing kids - I bet they're much better off with it run by idf than Hamas.
That's literally war. Become a general/propose a way to kill /apprehend people that look like civilians while hiding in civilian places
I think Hamas is hiding inside your house. What, do people think Hamas wouldn't hide inside your house?
Do you consider that a good rebuttal. Truly a childish mind. Of course you can't comprehend complex situations
Hamas and Hezbollah are not the public of Palestine. So it raises the question if anybody cares. Netanyahu has made it clear to the rest of us he does not.
They look just like the public and fighting from where the public lives. What is Israel to do? Just accept getting massacred.
Does getting massacred justify massacring tenfold? I'm pretty sure the United States emmisaries had this very conversation with the state of Israel.
The thing is, Hamas and Hesbollah see provoking Israel to disproportionate reprisal as a worthwhile gambit. They know Netanyahu is glad to enact genocide justified by retaliation to terror. But now the world will get to watch the horrors of war under Israeli jackboots. And it will be ugly, and the world may have opinions about the Israeli state doing ugly things. The general opinion from the international community is changing. Along with the US' unconditional support of a regional bully.
There are better ways. But Israeli state has rejected all alternatives, and is glad to throw stormtroopers into the mix.
And yes, the people of Israel, by a significant majority don't want an overkill response. They want a path towards peace. But the far right does like us vs. them dynamics to consolidate power. It's the same playbook Trump uses.
I'm not an expert. I don't know how to fix this, but the experts were shown the door, so here we are. 👀
When Israel massacres civilians and massacres disproportionately, it then loses the peace. It also reveals its administration is too immature to deserve international support. The indiscriminate brutality of the IDF will reflect both on the the legitimacy of Israel and its allies, hence the conditions now added to US materiel support.
I'm very glad you don't have any responsibility in this or any state affair.
ok but if they're hiding in a hospital you dont need to bomb it? or do anything to it? hiding is not hurting anyone.
For conflicts like this leadership that is planning attacks or otherwise leading forces that are doing attacking, simply existing anywhere outside a prison cell is threatening. Hamas leadership knows that, they're the ones putting hostpitals at risk by being there.
right, but my point is, however inconvenient it is, we always have a choice not to bomb hospitals. People take human shields, you don't have to shoot through the human shields.
Do I have all the answers? No, but people go to school for war. Surely this has come up before at some point in the last 20,000 years?
You certainly should do your best to not shoot through human shields, agreed. But can it still sometimes be better to shoot through human shields if that's what it takes to get very dangerous people vs letting them escape and threaten again later? I don't know, it's a hard question.
hiding is not hurting anyone.
The assholes in the hospital are still shooting at the assholes outside the hospital. Though I still agree the assholes outside shouldn't be bombing it just to get at the assholes inside.
we saw this in Bosnia and Rwanda, too. This is similar to Bosnia/Serbia/Yugoslavia in a lot of way (especially the siege of Saraievo).
Depends. Are they artillery spotters. Are they leadership trying to claim to be in a safe you can't tag me zone. Did they just momentarily hide their guns too. Ya gotta secure that shit one way or another otherwise you'll get another massacre.
There are no good answers
Is that really what we're debating? We all know it isn't.
What's important is can they get away with it before losing the support of those propping them up.
When the US and their buddies bombed the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and we all gathered around to watch the display of "shock and awe" did we bother to find out what they were bombing? Or did we just just go "take that, Taliban and Al-Qaida"?
Anything Israel are doing has been done before by their allies. They know it's shady as fuck, but also know they got away with it too.
Argument from incredulity is "this sounds absurd, therefore it's false." That's not what this is, this is just pointing out absurdity.
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Think about it again, what's the difference?
By the way, I didn't say that this post claims it's false. It's worse. This post begs the reader to claim it's false on the authors behalf
It's sort of getting debated because it was used as the place where hostages where kept and where Hamas militia were operating from. But I guess that wasn't significant enough to raise eyebrows.
So what have the israelis actually found??
What I saw was a handful of weapons and a laptop. Not some headquarters
Very unconvinced so far. But the fog of war and disinformation is in full swing
Hamas should be operating out of a Palestinian military base.
(/s and if you're not sure why please do look it up)
It's amazing that people are even questioning taking out Hamas... Do they actually not understand that the reason the children are in danger is because they have hesitated when Hamas has done this in the past - using the children as human shields?
What kind of absolute sociopath would trade the thousands of lives Hamas will take if they're allowed to live, just because they use the world's humanity against it?
When it costs one life to save millions and there is no choice because the evil Hamas has set this price, it must be paid.
Shame on Hamas for putting these children in danger. May they rot in hell for their horrifying, demonic and evil sin.
The problem is that Hamas is not just an organization, it's also the ideology of resistance to the Israeli occupation. You can't take out an ideology. Even if Hamas the organization is gone, another one will take its place.
The only way to take out such an organization is to eliminate the reason why it exists. It's definitely not easy, and it takes a lot of negotiations and goodwill, making amends and getting over a lot of bad history. But waging war is achieving the exact opposite of that, and only creating the conditions for future conflicts.
I think they're aiming for plan B. Commit genocide so there's no one left who maintains that ideology.
The trouble is, the reason Hamas and similar groups exist it that Israel exists. Many people in Palestine, and also people in neighbouring countries and many Muslims who aren't even directly involved, believe that the whole place should be a pure Muslim country. I've literally seen people protest for this on the streets here. How do you suggest that solution should be enforced?
They will not accept a country that has women and LGBTQ rights, music festivals, etc. in between them. They protested and attacked these targets for a reason for several decades now.
I just wish the people who wish for the reason Hamas exists to be gone would at least be honest about all the consequences it entails. Otherwise this is just a very comfortable position of moral high ground where people can claim they protect the victims but they won't think any further.
eliminate the reason why it exists.
Well I think everybody knows exactly how to do that then, and it's the exact opposite of what's happening right now.
It's almost like Israel and it's supporters are shocked that a resistance movement formed in response to them murdering civilians and destroying homes of innocent families. Maybe it's not the moral response, but no one can claim to be surprised by it.
Killing the children now will definitely save them from being killed later. Infallible logic.
To be clear, if some criminal has human hostages you're fine if the building they are in is torched?
Curious to know if you think shooting down United 93 on 9/11 would have been the right thing to do or not? (had the US Airforce got there in time). What say you?
To be clear, if some criminal has human hostages you're fine if the building they are in is torched?
Will the criminals take more hostage if we don't act? Are the hostage takers willing to return the hostages safely? Is it feasible to attempt a rescue operation that doesn't just put many more at risk? Does this criminal organization's continued existence have a human life cost to it?
So you think it's okay to burn down a hospital if it means stopping Hamas? Even if the hospital has babies in incubators?
Remind me, what was plastered on ads and social media from Israel earlier last month? Something about dead babies... what was it again?
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Not the same thing. The hostage takers in your example are only posing a danger to the hostages themselves. There is no outside harm caused by deciding not to act. Hamas on the other hand poses a real danger to Israel. Not counter attacking Hamas would result in attacks on Israeli citizens, so Israel has to act. Hamas is using the hospital as an unethical way of shielding itself from such counter attacks because they know Western war philosophy aims to minimize civilian casualties, so attacks on hospitals hurt Israels global support. However, by operating from within a hospital, Hamas are making the hospital a valid military target. Minimizing civilian casualties goes both ways. You don't attack hospitals unless they are a valid military target and you don't set up military operations inside hospitals so as to prevent them from becoming valid military targets.
To be clear, you think it's okay to attack a hospital, even ones with babies on incubators?
Remind me, what was Israel plastering on ads and social media earlier last month? Something about Hamas beheading babies?
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I pretty much stop listening when the word ‘evil’ is used.
You sound like the IDF and I don’t trust or respect your POV because of your obvious bias.
Shame on Israel for treating a people the way they have for so long so that the only outcome could be Hamas.
If you torture an animal and it bites, who's to blame? People like you have a very short term memory it seems, unwilling to look at how this situation was brought about.
You cannot treat people the way Israel has treated them and then get up in arms when you meet resistance.
People aren't animals, though. They can take responsibility for their own decisions.
Also, where do you draw the line? You could take the same argument the other way around and claim Israel doesn't actually commit war crimes. It's because most of them are Jewish and they have been mass murdered multiple times throughout human history. They are now just fighting tooth and nail for having a safe place at least once in history.
It doesn't work to be on one side if people want to resolve this conflict. Unless you literally want the other side to be completely annihilated.
They are now just fighting tooth and nail for having a safe place at least once in history.
Oh sure, Israel is just defending itself from an evil aggressor! It's not imprisoning an entire people, robbing them of everything they have, taking over their land, routinely kidnapping and torturing their children, reducing cities to rubble, installing a system of apartheid, and ethnically cleansing the area.
Nope, none of that is happening and Hamas does what it does just because they are evil in nature.
Unless you literally want the other side to be completely annihilated.
If you look at what is happening and what the leadership in Israel routinely states, you'd understand that it is Israel that is annihilating Palestine. Instead you fall for sound bites and propaganda because you're either too lazy or dishonest to figure out what is going on.
Look at how many Palestinians have been killed vs Israelis. Just look at the numbers. What kind of psychopath is willing to kill even more people who have been being killed and oppressed for almost a century?
If this is a justification you accept for this level of violence from Isreal, then you can't argue against anything Hamas has done without being a hypocrite.
And on a purely emotionless evaluation of the numbers, this kind of response from Isreal hasn't worked for 80 years, but they keep killing innocent people. Maybe it's time to try something else. Unless of course that's not actually the reason.
"WHY DID YOU MAKE ME DO THIS? Your fighting, so you watch everyone around you die, THINK MARK, you'll outlast every fragile, insignificant being on this planet. You'll live to see this world crumble to dust and BLOW AWAY!
Everyone, and everything you know, WILL BE GONE... WHAT WILL YOU HAVE AFTER 500 YEARS?"
You sound like Marks Dad...
If we read Netanyahu's book, then I'm sure you're right.
I'm not sure if there's an opposing view.
I'm not happy about it. It certainly biases my viewpoint. He wasn't doing a genocide at the time.