I voted blue no matter who to stop fascism in 2020 and now the guy I voted for is enabling a genocide. What was the fucking point?
both parties are fascist -- the only real difference is rhetoric -- so you shouldn't support them in any way (and voting in USian presidential elections is a complete waste of time, anyway)
At times the difference is that one party pretends otherwise.
Now they just give different reasons.
We shouldn't focus on the "should you vote" but rather on the "should you spend energy and time convincing people to vote" and that's a clear NO
Elections are demoralising and confusing, trying to get people to vote is excruciating because nothing about voting in bourgeois regimes is about real politics.
Let liberals do their shit, treat those elections as vacations from real organising if you can't escape electoralism, and if your org is based enough keep doing real solidarity and ideological work!
Nope. Fuck 'em. Buy a tool, get certified with it, get concealed carry with it, spend at least an hour a week at your local range learning it. That chrome will save you a whole lot sooner and a whole lot more often than the Genocider Blue party.
Even if you wanted to mitigate fascist policies, it has become very obvious, especially recently, that the tactic of voting "the lesser of two evils" is total bullshit. Even if you voted for PSL or some other third party, you are making a statement, which still does more power to make the ruling class shake in their boots. It's like how more people using Linux makes Microsoft more worried (just an analogy, maybe not completely accurate, given their history of E.E.E.) than people asking for change within Windows. Even if you wanted to vote blue, what anti-war, anti-imperialist option even exists? Every single last one of those fuckers have betrayed us. Do you want to be covertly stabbed in the back or overtly stabbed in the face?
If you want to actually create change, organize with your local socialist party and volunteer/participate. Try to unionize your workplace. Help with mutual aid. Interact with people and help them join or even just support our cause. The reason PSL is running in the election (Claudia & Karina) is not with the expectation to win, but to utilize the most optimal time--once in every four years, when most people are paying attention in politics--to build class consciousness among the working class. This is the current stage we are in, and we are working hard to build a movement for the long term. We won't win through elections, but through revolution. The ruling class will not allow it any other way.
"A freedom fighter learns the hard way that it is the oppressor who defines the nature of the struggle, and the oppressed is often left no recourse but to use methods that mirror those of the oppressor. At a point, one can only fight fire with fire."
- Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Do not expect your local socialist party to be perfect. Do not wait for the perfect party. It will never come. To see change, we must organize now!
Solidarity forever!
We have nothing to lose but our chains!
I'm going to be honest about this topic. I think the Democrats are actually better at passing the worst of the Republican legislation, but without getting caught or protested against as badly.
What was some of the biggest things that people were complaining about under Republican leadership? Building the wall.. Anit-Abortion.. Both of these things are coming true under Democratic leadership and with far less public outcry than under the Republican leadership.
Make no mistake, Trump is a moron and a fascist and deserves to be treated as such. However, the more competent Democrats have been able to bring forward the worst of the Republican policies and effectively become Democratic policies of their own.
Something else to consider though, is all of the stuff that was not publicized that happened under the Trump leadership. continued deregulation of corporations, continued corporate welfare and a myriad of other anti-democracy policies. Trump made so many presidential declarations that the news just couldn't even handle every stupid thing he was doing.
And the vast majority of those stupid things have not been rolled back, have not been touched since Biden has been in office.
So long as things aren't publicized, so they aren't criticized so heavily, the Democrats are very willing to let the fascist policies of the Republican Party pass and even help push them along if they can convince their body of constituents that it's only because they're compromising.
After all of that, you may be surprised to hear that I still think that a Republican president would be worse. After all, they are the ones that are creating these policies. The Democrats just help soften the blows when they come into office and don't undo them, or even push them along further.
But all of the insane liberals out there that believe that if you don't vote Democrat, that that means that you're voting for Republicans, are just blinded to the fact that there really is no democracy in the United States. If you have to vote for one of the two parties, and both parties basically have the same policies, then there really isn't a choice. This is the illusion of choice. And in reality, we have a one-party system that disagrees on only a few aspects of governance. And they only disagree in so far as the Democrats have to save face a little bit more often than the Republicans do, since at this point in time, the Republicans are basically masks off about being fascists.
A third party vote is symbolic. And it also pisses off the liberals. Revolution is the only thing that will change anything in this fucking country anyway.
I personally don’t want to vote for Democrats because A.) They haven’t earned my vote. The only Dem who did was Bernie, and even then, I was making concessions by doing that. Biden or Buttigieg or whoever tf all support Israel, Ukraine, Taiwan and whatever other garbage Neoliberal opposition to working class solidarity there is. B.) To vote for the Dem means to support them. End of the day, nobody’s forcing you to vote. It’s optional to vote, and if every candidate sucks, why choose to personally give a platform to that one “lesser of two evils” candidate? They sucked just as much 2 minutes ago before you learned that the Republican is a bit worse. C.)(similar to point A) To a certain extent it doesn’t matter what you vote for. Biden is a SPECTACULAR example. Trump stood for building the Southern Border Wall, not giving A FUCK about Covid-19 and was very very Pro-Israel and anti-anything to do with AES. Look at Biden, he didn’t do much more drastic measures to deal with Covid, he still fear-mongers about AES, even after he JUST met with Xi Jinping. And Idk if I even have to outline his support for open genocide that’s happening in Palestine by IDF. He tries to bullshit us every second. It’s infuriating and I refuse to personally support him. He’s also supporting building the Southern border wall. WTF?!I really love politics tho, so I may just waste my time for shits and giggles and do a write in vote as a joke for myself. I’m 80% sure that the Ghost of Pee Wee Herman could lead this country better than all 46 administrations so far
No doubt, I voted for him in the past, before I really knew shit about his Israel takes, I just thought he was a good DemSoc, turns out he’s a SocDem, which as arbitrary as it may sound makes all the difference. 0/5 Stars Would not recommend lol
No, because then what happens in the next election? You just do the same thing again? Then again? Then again? You aren't going to solve a problem by just twiddling your thumbs and hoping it solves itself. The best solution at the moment is to vote for a third party. I won't lie and pretend it's a perfect solution but it at least has a better chance of making some type of progress than just doing the same thing the libs have been attempting for decades with absolutely nothing to show for it
The Dems often fund the campaigns of the worst of the worst Republicans because they believe them to be easier to beat in elections. Their whole plan is to be just slightly less bad than the worst that the Republicans have to offer. The modern Dems need the Republican party. This means, of course, that they will strongly defend the Republican party rather than defeat it. http://archive.today/xRPOo
to be woke roughly means to have awareness of social and racial injustice; it's supposed to be a compliment, and it certainly doesn't apply in this case
Fair enough, I stand corrected. I do wonder then if the military is actually already running the country while the presidents are too unaware to do anything...
I don't know the details but I'd wager it's a combination of other politicians, the military and various semi-autonomous three-letter agencies, all doing the bidding of the big bourgeoisie, and I'm sure members of the latter are directly involved as well
Project 2025 has shown there is a sustained and well funded effort to turn the U.S. into a literal Christo-Fascist state.
Th USA has always been, since even before it's founding, a Christo-Fascist state. Even more to the point, North Atlantic fascism is inherently Christian, so what purpose does the Christo prefix serve?
Since the Europeans came to this land, they have used Christianity as their rationale for mass murder, mass rape, child separation, castration, starvation, slave labor, concentration camps, death camps, environmental devastation, strictural misogyny, structural racism, all out war, religious persecution, mutilation, human medical experimentation, and eugenics. I probably missed a few.
Ruth Bader Ginsberg, paragon of blue virtue, wrote a majority opinion establishing the Doctrine of Discovery as the legal basis for the country. The Doctrine of Discovery is part and parcel of the white patriarchal religious decrees that also directed Europeans to kill most of the brown people they met, enslave the rest, break their minds and bodies, forcibly breed them closer to whiteness, and destroy every remnant of their culture even those parts that are carried in the mind.
So when we say the Dems are the same as the Rs, we're serious. They both oversee and maintain the pinnacle of the North Atlantic fascist project, which is patriarchal white Christian fascism, the only type of fascism that has existed in the Euro-centric world (e.g. all of the Western hemisphere, all of Europe, and all of the European colonies globally).
The Ds and the Rs hold rhetorically different positions, and they take some actions to virtue signal in order to provide cover for their rhetoric. But Trump used Title 42 to deny asylum and put people in concentration camps, then Biden said this is bad and stopped doing it to unaccompanied minors, but increased total enforcement by multiples.
The Ds are not a counter weight to fascism. They are collaborators
In good faith, I do ask my fellow comrades what the end goal is if Trump is elected though?
And likewise, what is the end goal with Biden, or anyone else?
I haven’t made up my mind if I’ll vote for Biden yet, but I am incredibly scared that if Trump wins, I may not be around much to fight back against Trump if he is elected.
Something that strikes me with all of these justifications I see from Americans about why they have no choice but to support a system that produces malicious, mass murdering white supremacists like Biden is the selfishism inherent in the excuses. The smol bean idpol self pity. "I'm trans so he'll genocide me instead of millions of foreigners." is a common one I'm seeing around. Or worse again, "I have to protect my trans allies by supporting genocide."
If someone puts a gun to my head and tells me to kill someone else or they'll kill me, you know what, I'm not killing anyone. Let them kill me, I'm not playing their game.
Something like 4.5 million dead in your name over the past 20 years and it's all "poor me, if I don't help them do these things then I might suffer instead".
Nobody's saying you have to go on an adventurist spree but you need to absolutely not be taking part and be prepared to lose all your friends and family over this latest atrocity. This one's the worst in quite a while. You'll have plenty of license to run your mouth at length.
Biden can be voted for as a means to an end. Vote by mail and be done with it. Don't run your mouth about it as if you did a great service to your country and only treat it like paying a parking ticket that has a slight chance to slow fascism. More time should be spent building a party that has a means of overtaking this wreached system. I notice that most socialist parties either have no idea how to sieze power or are keeping their cards to their chests (for good reason).
No the major strategy is not voting clearly. Any real work to build socialism will take alot more time than it takes to fill out a ballot. I'm just suggesting to fill out a ballot and mail it because why not. It is a tool available that might be less awful. Treat it like paying a speeding ticket, shamefully do it and don't bother to tell anyone about it. Let your real work be outside the electoral process.
Ok its all about ego then, not anything practical. If it hurts ya that much, then yea don't do it. Put in all efforts towards building socialism comrade.
What do you see as the practical benefits of supporting fascism? If we were back at the last election you would have voted for genocide.
It's not that it hurts me personally, it hurts the working class of your country. I already put in efforts to build socialism.
You are validated in feeling anxious about another Trump presidency, but it's pretty inevitible at this point (of course I could be wrong). Understand that the Democrats are not here to stop that, but to lay out a red carpet for the Republicans. The current genocide in Palestine and the backlash from it in all likelihood could be the death of the Dems. And the neocons in the Democratic Party are perfectly okay with that.
Trump will win because the ruling class needs Trump back in office. They see the writing on the wall.
The only thing I can say is a vote for third party is a vote for the party you agree with the least to win.
We need to get rid of this bullshit "first past the pole" system that entrenches a duopoly and then we can vote for whatever party we truly want to see in office. For now though, not voting for one is simply allowing the other to win.
You could get a bunch of people to run smear campaigns against the red and blue candidates (stickers/posters everywhere) and then vote for whatever third party candidate might exist.
No, its useless. By voting you will simply change the colour of the genocide-machine from red to blue or vise-versa. It doesn't matter if Genocide Joe finances Israel to bomb babies or if Trump does, the babies will be blown up into pieces either way.
Honestly my issue is one of them will win, and it stands to reason that one will be even if very slightly less worse then the other, then it is worth it to pick the less bad, how I like to think is if someone offered me at choice between and kick in crotch and a shot in the knee, I would like to choose, even if both sucks I wouldn't close my eyes and say pick for me I don't care.
And if the choice is trump vs someone I would strongly consider the someone, not because trump is in practice that much worse in terms of policy or political decisions, but what scares me in trump is the way he galvanizes American people behind fascism and violence towards anything and anyone that stands in their way and how hard he makes for any reasonable debate to be had, so yeah I would vote against trump, and I think that everyone should vote because one way or the other one will win and they are not exactly alike and if in one point you care about one is less worse even if you disagree with me, vote steer the ship to the least menacing rocks. The point is not to ignore elections(even Lenin said so in state and revolution he said that social Democrats are awful but less awful in work conditions and such and such so its something) but to know that at the very best we are picking a less toxic poison but poison still and the solution lies elsewhere, so vote but know that it's never a victory no matter who wins but might be lesser defeat.
By voting you are personally endorsing the actions taken by them. You are not required to take part, you are choosing to support them.
And if the choice is trump vs someone I would strongly consider the someone
You think it's not possible to get someone worse than Trump?
the way he galvanizes American people behind fascism and violence towards anything and anyone that stands in their way and how hard he makes for any reasonable debate to be had,
Have you looked at the news recently? Do you think you don't have fascism today? Reasonable debate? I just watched that removed continue to justify an ongoing genocide by describing 40 beheaded babies a month after that story was thoroughly debunked and retracted, and you're thinking "This is how we avoid tyranny. This guy right here."?
so yeah I would vote against trump
You don't get to vote against anyone, you only get to vote for someone.
vote steer the ship to the least menacing rocks.
I love how this analogy just places the blame on some natural unthinking phenomenon like a storm, rather than a conniving cabal of imperialist capitalists bent on amassing power by making fools like you engage with their corrupt systems.
Lenin had a clear strategy, you do not, all you have is a heartless shrug at the millions that will be killed by whichever stooge gets to be figurehead. Your responsibility is to overthrow this crooked system, not make excuses and pretend you've no other choice.
No not necessarily, the reason you vote speaks volumes, voting might mean I think the other side is worse, since there isn't an alternative(outcome to the election ), not voting is letting other people decide.
When you talk about someone worse than trump sure if the other side is worse pkease by all means vote trump, if the other side would be more damaging I would, expressed why I am scared of trump and I don't have the full picture but if you have a clearer vision go ahead.
And please don't make assumptions about what I said and distort it, you are nischaracterizing my argument, yes the "storm" I talk about is bourgeois democracy that is a construct of the opressing class for decades if not centuries, and WHAT THE FUCK did you think I ment by the solution lies elsewhere, the solution lies in the revolution aka the strategy Lenin posed, but in the meantime voting the less worse while working towards the revolution are in no way mutually exclusive, jeez man in on your side you might disagree with me but no need to get nasty about it.
The system doesn't care about the reason you held in your heart while you endorsed and supported genocide. It only tallies the choices of you and others who excuse, enable and support America's atrocities.
When you talk about someone worse than trump sure
Okay so you're no longer giving carte blanche to absolutely anyone but Trump. But let's stop here and ask what you mean by "worse". Is it something that's worse only for the rights of a subset of American citizens? Or worse for the millions of innocents killed by the USA abroad? Because already Biden's been worse on that count. Sure you could argue that Trump might have been worse, but we only get this timeline. What is worse to you? How do you quantify that? "Damaging" to what exactly?
And please don’t make assumptions about what I said and distort it
There's no assumption. You want to legitimise the USA's corrupt politics by taking part in its fraudulent "democracy" charade. You're a willing hostage to this phony theatre.
but no need to get nasty about it.
I'm talking to someone who's open about their tacit support for genocide and many other atrocities. I don't apologise for my tone.
But don't matter what the system thinks either, if the other side would do worse what is the harm?
I want to legitimize nothing, it's just a material truth, one of those fuckers will have the seat, and what is worse is up for debate, and it's important to define, but if you arrive to a conclusion by whatever means you have that one will be worse than the other, it's worthwhile to prevent that person to hold office, even if the other will be quite bad, but I don't mean that it's a fair system, but it's the actual system, it must be broken and changed, but while it is not, it has impact and it will arrive into a conclusion, and we can choose to influence it or not, and in my eyes not influencing it is giving away a tool to at least mitigate some damage, if it small even if it is not that impactful, I think some damage can be mitigated by voting, even if you, as I do as well, think that the whole thing is a farce and needs to be uprooted, the fact of the matter is that it wasn't uprooted yet and one of the two jerks their respective parties would choose will end up on top, and we can either look at it with crossed arms or help nudge to one side, that shouldn't mean we like that person, or the we enjoyed voting for them, but it means we had a stupid choice forced upon us and if we say nothing, other people, some of which are taken by crazy senseless narratives will choose it for us, and I rather be a part of the decision. I say that being a Brazilian and trust me my country suffered horribly by the hands of US colonialism, and still if any American is reading this and you sincerely ponder about it and arrive in a conclusion of some that will be less damaging for the world, go ahead vote for them, this vote shouldn't mean anything, whomever wins will talk about numbers and shit, if were the other would say the same fucking thing, the important part as I said since my very first comment, is no matter the outcome it is not a win, since this system can produce no wins, but it might be a worthwhile effort to make the defeat a little smaller it might be the case. And if you look at what I said, I'm not absolutely certain of anything, I'm saying everything in terms of it seems and based on this and that, because it's a very complex issue, and I know that I can be wrong in lots, but I think that leaving a decision that WILL BE TAKEN no matter what we say about to other people to choose, seems to not be the best course of action, but if it's impossible to decide which one will be the worse, then be it, but if that can be asserted with any degree of certainty, it might be a good thing to prevent that one to get there, and that is my focus, preventing the worse to get that, I see those votes a vote against someone no pro any other, because if there were another way to prevent one of the sides(or both for that matter) to get there(and kinda is but unclear if it will come to be before the next election takes place) it would be best, but while that is not the reality I think the options should be considered.
From what I can glean out of the wall of text, it's some rambling incoherent collection of excuses.
I'm just hearing the exact same support for fascism that led to Biden. The people who voted for him have blood on their hands. You don't have to join them.
I would really like you to read it, I don't think it's incoherent nor do I think you should vote against trump or for him, I just think that voting can be worth it, and any choice can have unforeseen, and if you want to hear something, I'm Brazilian, and influenced by trump(being a big admirer and supported of the fellow) our president Bolsonaro, caused around 400 thousand lives to be lost because he refused the vaccine in the footsteps of his leader, and yeah I wished for Biden to have won the election, because Trump was part of a crazy ideological group that helped my country to loose many lives on the covid pandemic. So it's never cut and dry, things are never easy so there is things to think about. And it's not because I wished biden to win that I am happy about his actions right now, and it shows me that there are more to be taken into consideration, still I think that voting can have some impact in mitigating damages.