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https://nitter.net/BMWK/status/1720130870864998800
https://nitter.net/BMWK/status/1720130870864998800
If anyone else comes here - go watch the posted video but stay away from this comment section.
I have absolutely no idea how such a level-headed and well-put-together speech appealing at human decency and respect towards each other devolved into such a vile comment section.
I assume most of the commenters either didn't watch the video or purposefully ignored its content to instead incite more hate.
Very good and level headed comment, rightfully met with wide acclaim across the political landscape in Germany.
Comments are disabled until I've got time to moderate them. It's normal to have strong feelings about the current situation. But you need to stay in scope of the Server Rules, it's also unacceptable to deny the right of Existence in Israel, post antisemitic and/or racist stuff. In Germany it's also a criminal offence to endorse or approve criminal offenses
I posted this before as an reply, but I think this is relevant for everyone: Hamas doubles down and says it was only the first October 7 attack of many to come
This could have been expressed in a single sentence: The fact that Israel is punishing all citizens of Ghaza for Hamas attacks does not mean that Germans should act the same towards the Jews (but we don't mind if you do towards Iranians and such). Tragic.
This is objectively false.
Habeck says in the video that he has seen a terrifying growth in antisemitism in Germany where members of the Jewish faith are scared to leave the house on their own or publicly display religious symbols due to open hostility. He talks about a responsibility of Germans due to the central role in the holocaust but also how the Islamic world has not distanced itself enough from the atrocities committed by the hamas. He even remarked that one doesn't have to agree with some of Israel's politics - even explicitly naming the settlements in the Gaza / West Bank region - but that this should not be any excuse for antisemitism.
I will say again what I said in another comment - The video is an appeal to human decency and respect. Shame on you for willfully and stubbornly ignoring that and derailing the conversation to incite further hate.
Yes, life in Gaza is life in poverty without prospects for the future. Yes, the settler movement in the West Bank is fomenting discord and robs the Palestinians of hope and rights and, increasingly, lives. And the suffering of the civilian population now at war is a fact, a terrible fact.
You are right and I am wrong I haven't read the whole video. I am ashamed. Insert whichever invective you like - I have few. There is no excuse.
I respect you for admitting you were wrong. That takes courage.
Also maybe it wasn't smart leaving that part out of my reply.
Unfortunately it's hard to tell trolls apart from real people in here.
It somewhat reminds me of the height of covid in online discussions - people turn off their brains and fall back on basic emotions and empty phrases.
Doesn't matter if it is his actual opinion or not. You still helped to clarify disinformation that someone might've just believed.
I have dealt with those people quite often on Lemmy.ml and even Lemmy.world
They are not here to discuss. They are here to spread hate and do their virtue signaling to Hamas apologists - because most of the time they are Hamas supporters themselves.
He's clarifying blatant disinformation (something the Greens suffering a lot of thanks to various propaganda campaigns against them). A lot of people might read it and take their comment for granted.
I haven't seen it yet, so I don't know if he said more than what you write.
What you describe is that he asks of Muslims everywhere to identify with Hamas and then to distance themselves from them. Does he address growing anti-muslim racism? Because from what you write it indeed sounds as if he appeals to human decency towards one side while ignoring the other.
No one except antisemites blames Jews for what Israel does, but on the other hand the Islamic world is blamed for Hamas terror and asked to distance themselves from it. Those are double standards.
So instead of writing long texts, you maybe should watch the video instead of accusing him of being „one sided“?
Lovely idea and guess what, in the meantime I did. That doesn't change anything about the other comment's content and that it depicts one-sidedness.
The speech was slightly better than the summary in the comment I replied to. I have different remarks and criticism of the speech now, but I don't really want to discuss those.
Call out the genocide. Looking away while saying "never again" is the utter peak of cynicism. You and your government are complicit in this genocide. Step down.
Habeck literally calls out both sides wrongdoings instead of ignoring one for the other, while differentiating Hamas & Palestinians, and the Israeli government & Jews as a whole. Something a lot of people wanted from other leaders & countries as well. But you do you with your anti-Green propaganda shit.
Isreals security is Germany's obligation - fair enough.
What is Germany's obligation to the people of Palestine?
one would think that murdering 50 million people of which 6 million were jews would lead to a more general responsibility to protect human lifes and international rule of law.
EDIT: It is truly amazing that human rights and international law get downvoted, when it is in the context of Israel. We are back on the way to barbarism i guess.
Well, personal political opinion as a German, is that it does and that we should obviously be opposed to the killing of any innocent person, but
there's multiple conflicts going on on this planet. We won't be able to solve all of them.
we also have an obligation to use our military defensively, not build up a massive army that can start WW3.
not everyone here holds the same opinion. This may come as a surprise, but there's nazis in Germany. Nazis that pay taxes and vote in our democracy.
There's also people who are younger than 80 years old. They may understand this obligation on a theoretical level, but when push comes to shove, they cannot possibly feel a personal obligation.
there’s multiple conflicts going on on this planet. We won’t be able to solve all of them.
But in those where we are involved we should take care of human life without being partisan. And most certainly not send weapons to actors comitting war crimes. This of course is not limited to Israel. Germany kept sending weapons to Saudi Arabia to commit terrible atrocities in Jemen. Heck Germany exported chemical plants and chemicals for the production of nerve gas to Saddam Hussein, whcih he subsequently used to murder Kurdish people in what remains the most devastating use of nerve gas since WW1.
And not blindly support a criminal state like Israel.
The average German is really unable to critize jews or Israel. They just follow blindly because that's how you get in less trouble.
It's sad, state media here is 95% pro Israel and 5% articles that acknowledge the humanitarian crisis, but never seem to grasp that it's Israel that is throwing 18000 bombs into an apartheid Ghetto.
So Germany is willing to look the other way as Israel is butchering thousands of innocents. The fact that I even voted for this guy's party..
You should volunteer yourself as a human shield for Hamas then, so a Palestinian doesn’t have to be a human shield for Hamas.
Human shield or not, Israel is killing innocent people using this disgusting excuse. If a terrorist would take your family hostage I'm sure you'd be more than happy to have Israel airstrike all of them.
Israel is killing innocent people
Basically describing every war ever. Why also war should be avoided, which is very possible if involved people in power are interested in it, which does not seems to be the case on either side.
Sadly that seems to be the truth. I don't see an end in sight for these hostilities. Neither Israel nor Hamas care about ending the war. Some of the current Israeli politicians leading the current cabinet have even went as far as to claim that Hamas is an asset for them. There's a great piece on this I read recently. Hamas on the other hand doesn't care about ending their hostilities due to their antisemitic islamist ideology.
Don’t tell us what you DON’T want, tell us what you DO want: How would you personally handle this situation while securing the Israeli AND the Palestinian people. And by securing I mean not only temporary, but permanently.
But please don’t pretend that you actually could negotiate a peace with Hamas.
Hamas is a symptom. They will always be there in one form or another as long as palestinians live under systemic oppression. Sure, you can take out hamas, kill as many civillians as you want in doing so, and you'll only create more extremists. The west bank is illegally occupied by israeli forces imposing apartheid like laws. You don't have to take that from me, take it from the UN. Palestinians live in a segregated society, having to drive on segregated roads, go through checkpoints, and so on. The western world just looks the other way but loves to virtue signal and wave fingers at other countries doing what Israel is doing (look at Russia invading Ukraine). Many palestinians feel that they've been let down by the world and the democratic world order we love to boast so much about, and thus they turn to extremist ideologies. So, as long as Israel's stance towards the palestinian question doesn't change, and as long as they keep ilegally occupying their territories (west bank and until 15 years ago Gaza which they then threw under a blockade that crippled the lives of millions), extremists will keep on breeding. These are very fertile grounds for extremist ideologies.
Sure, they could genocide all palestinians and that would probably solve the problem, but is that who you want to support?
Quit trying to contextualize the murder done by Hamas and quit trying to evade the question.
That „symptom“ is NOW killing innocent civilians, Palestinians and Israeli alike. And yes, Hamas is responsible for every civilian death in Palestine - because they started this war.
I want to hear from you, since you claim to know better than anyone else, what can get done NOW, not years from now. What would you personally do different NOW in regards to Hamas.
Quit trying to contextualize the murder done by Hamas and quit trying to evade the question.
Contextualizing complex situations is very important if you are honestly, actually looking for solutions. This wasn't the first terrorist attack and won't be the last no matter how much wishful thinking you do on your side. Simplifying this and looking at one event in vacuum is a bastardization of history and the current problem, and does absolutely nothing to help the current situation.
Hamas is responsible for every civilian death in Palestine
That is a bastardization of the reality and reads like straight out propaganda to fuel even more innocent deaths. When a military force is butchering innocent civillians from the sky you can't just deflect the reality with a straight face while also claiming to have the moral high ground.
Every normal person can agree that the terrorist attack on October 7th was completely unjustified and an atrocity. At the same time, every normal person should also be able to agree that killing innocent civillians under collective punishment and painting them as collateral damage is an atrocity as well.
because they started this war.
This war hasn't started yesterday. Gaza has been under a military blockade for almost two decades now. The west bank has been under an apartheid military occupation for decades now. These hostilities might not amount to a formal declaration of war under your bureaucratic understanding of the world, but they are ineded hostile acts based on ethnicity.
I want to hear from you, since you claim to know better than anyone else, what can get done NOW, not years from now.
Well, besides the fact that I have never claimed such a thing, you should remember here that I am not going against "everyone else" on this one. You seem to be under the false impression that your opinion here is the mainstream one. The UN voted in an overwhelming majority for the cessation of the current hostilities in Gaza. They might not be all from the G7 nations that live under the impression that they have the moral high ground, but I'm sure they don't represent just a loud minority as you seem to believe. Anyway.
I am no diplomat. I can't say for sure what needs to be done right now, but I can recognize what is extremely wrong right now: and that is the butchering of innocent civillians under the pretext of collective punishment (which is illegal according to international humanitarian law). What I personally wish for is a two state solution where Israel stops illegally occupying lands and imposing an apartheid regime onto innocent civillians that have a right to live in the lands their ancestors lived in for centuries. That means removing all illegal settlements from said lands, pulling their military occupation out of said territory, and imposing normal borders (and protecting their borders) like every other nation does.
Hamas is a virus. They won't stop existing just because you kill the current hamas. They will keep popping up as long as the occupation and oppression continues to exist. If you want to heal a society from this extremism, you need to give them space, time, and the right to self determination. An oppressed people will never have inner peace.
My great great grandparents were sent to a jewish ghetto in the part of Romania where I'm from. The biggest jewish ghetto out of what is now considered Romania. They were romanian jews. They lived through some horrible times because of genocidal maniacs. They were pushed out of their homes, killed in the streets, treated as foreigners in their own land. My great great grandmother died in the holocaust. My great great grandfather disappeared. My great grandfather grew up as an orphan and never met his parents.
Gazans have gone through a very similar situation. They've been pushed out of their homes, oppressed, treated as lesser, cast aside. 70% of Gazans are refugees that fled their ancestral homes. They live in a ghetto with no rights to self determination. The walls around this enclosure are controlled by a regime that despises them and are the ones that take the decisions of what they get and when they get it. You can't tell me with a straight face that after decades of living in such dire conditions you are somehow surprised that extremism has found fertile grounds there.
So again, I ask you to have some sympathy here with the innocents being butchered daily by aistrikes of a regime that has always treated them as lesser individuals. And I do that as a part jew that sympathises with jewish history quite a lot.
Butchering civillians won't get you less hamas. It will just breed more extremism.
A lot of words that are obviously meant to disguise the fact, that you still say NOTHING about what you would do differently. This is not how this works.
So again, I ask you to have some sympathy here with the innocents being butchered daily by aistrikes of a regime that has always treated them as lesser individuals. And I do that as a part jew that sympathises with jewish history quite a lot.
Butchering civillians won’t get you less hamas. It will just breed more extremism.
Why are you insinuating that I have no sympathy with the Palestinian civilians? Of course I do. But you have proven by now yourself, that there isn’t an alternative to the way Israel is reacting. Hamas in its current form has to get destroyed.
But as you like to talk about the Second World War so much: Was it wrong by the allied Forces to bombard German cities in WW2 and thereby also killing German civilians? Quite lots of them actually?
Didn't Israel start this war by creating an apartheid state and genocide by deporting non jews to a Ghetto and making their live so miserable that people decide to fight against their oppressors?
Didn't Israel create Hamas? And propped them up? Israel wanted what happened, now they can go in full force and most idiots even applaud them for manipulating a people into war.
They learned from the US, maniacs that start wars by lying about the enemy planning to use WMD. No nation can should trust a word coming out of their mouths.
Not a SINGLE word, what you would do differently.
ALL words excuses for Hamas murdering civilians.
Hamas doesn’t commit their terror attacks „for“ the Palestinians, they commit them, because they hate Israel and the Jews. If they would fight for the Palestinian civilians, they wouldn’t operate in or near civilian infrastructure, they wouldn’t wear civilian clothing and they would share their vast stockpiles with the Palestinian civilians.
How is that? I'm a gay, partly jewish guy, that is strongly left leaning and cares a lot about the climate and social issues. I have voted for the green party. I agree with their stance on Ukraine and Russia, which is why I am so confused by their stance on Israel. I never expected them to act in such a way. I agree with their climate policy. I agree with their urbanism policies. But the complete disregard they have shown towards palestinian lives is simply disgusting. But whatever, you tell me who I voted for.
Downvote all you want. The green voters aren't a monolithic voice and not all of us stand with the words of Robert Habeck. Antisemitism is horrible, everyone can agree with that. But his statements of full support for Israel... not even a word of real criticism for the way they're butchering little children and entire families. Disgusting. What the world has become. The left has now gone full circle. Literally finding excuses for the murder of civillians.
Yes, this bullshit definitely makes your story and disinformation even more believable. You understand that people can actually check his words for themselves, right?
Look. I went and listened to the speech again, because I don't want people to claim that I'm spreading misinformation here.
What I gathered from his speech, the main points:
I'd rather have a Germany that works towards a humanitarian solution, not a Germany that is straight up supporting some very horrible people and supports the US in blocking any kind of UN intervention. I don't mind calling out antisemitism, I've been doing that my entire life. And I have read more than enough books on jewish history, dug through archives to learn about my great great grandparents that died in the holocaust, and much more. I don't mind calling out terrorism either, every sane human should. But I very much mind this kind of rhetoric towards unconditional support for a far-right expansionist regime. Especially one represented by a far-right religious zionist coalition, that claims that some biblical lands that currently happen to be under palestinian control should be owned by them because their book says so. Here you can read more about them. Is this really who we want to throw our unconditional support at? A cabinet filled with people like Itamar Ben-Gvir that literally has a poster of a terrorist that killed a bunch of people in his office? The guy that put a billbioard of arab opposition politicians in a town and called for their expulsion? Man I'm so over this. Believe what you want. I voted green for a reason. Now I don't know who to vote for anymore. I sure as hell don't want to vote for the putinists further to the left, and the more to the right you go than the green party the worse it gets.
@febra @DarkThoughts First of, kudos for taking the time to watch the entire thing and writing a comprehensive answer. It's stuff like this that makes me appreciate this platform. So a sincere thanks.
Two, actual substance: For all its faults and sometimes procecutable actions I dont think Israël is pursuing the eradication of the Palestine people, this as opposed to the attempted eradication of the Israelie AND Jewish (Kindly note the two of them) populace by Hamas/Hezbollah/ISIS/etc. Survival
I used to have a very similar opinion up until the far-right has hijacked the Israeli government, and thereby officially making it state policy that the Land of Israel is first and foremost jewish. That the government should first and foremost work by jewish laws and traditions. That the state policy will be that of settling all the jewish lands, and keep in mind, we're talking about the ultraorthodox religious zionist coalition here, so those lands are the ones described in the holy texts. This means settling even in territories that currently count as palestinian. This government has made expansionism state policy. This same government talks a lot about the jewish identity, promoting that. All of these policies do not scream diversity to me in any way shape or form, and they surely don't seem intended to make the lives of non jews easier. "The government will preserve the Jewish character of the state". Settlements are mentioned everywhere throughout their official policy.
Please, I beg you to go read that link. It's not even from a weird anti-Israel website. It's on the Times of Israel website. We are looking at a far-right theocratic state in the making here. Israel already had too many disturbing laws, and this will only make it worse.
With that being said, you're right, they might not try to eradicate the palestinian people, but they sure will try to make their lives hell under the current government. And by state policy, since they don't represent "the jewish character" of the state, they surely won't have a nice life there either.