https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/09/no-evidence-yet-of-iran-link-to-hamas-attack-says-israeli-military
Iran has issued denials and US has said it has no direct knowledge of Iran being behind attack
Is the media really trying to blame the wrong perpetrator just like they did for 9/11? I guess people learned nothing from the US's botched response to 9/11.
It's pretty simple really. Not including the recent attack, Israel has killed 10k+ Palestinians since 2000 vs the ~500 Israelis killed in conflict. It is pretty simple to see why a group of Palestinians would do something like this. They are angry at Israelis oppressing them.
With that being said, their desire for revenge is understandable. There is still no reason to murder innocent Israelis.
I don't get why both sides bring the innocent into it. The one place for moral high ground and they both double down on the atrocities...
I barely understand how this has gone on for so many generations/centuries, however - does it predate some of the agreed conventions of war?
My understanding is that after ww2 lots of Jews moved to Israel until they made up a sizable portion of the population of Palestine. There was enough conflict between the 2 races/religions that Britian petitioned the UN to come up with a solution. The solution was breaking Palestine up into Israel and Palestine. There has been on and off conflict between the two groups ever since with Israel being the most successful in the conflict. I would say it's recently been largely a cold conflict with a few little skirmishes between them. Conventions of War only apply if there someone willing to enforce them.
That’s not accurate. Almost at all. Zionism started long before WWII and there wasn’t pronounced conflict with Arabs until political Zionism took hold and the Irgun began their terrorist campaign against Arabs and the British. That’s why the British left. They didn’t want to start a war against Jews right after the holocaust. But not for some great humanitarian reason, they just didn’t want the bad press as their empire was falling to pieces.
Which part is is inaccurate?
The conflict I am referring to in the second sentence is Haganah or Irgun's bombing of the british embassy. To go into more detail, the same group of people that were assisting to bring Jews to Israel was also behind an attack on the British Embassy.
You literally don’t mention Irgun or their war against the British. You said that inter-ethnic strife was the cause of Britain abandoning the region. Everything you said was wrong, misleading, or omitted crucial details.
Yes, I did not fully explain all the context of the situation. I did so intentionally as I was providing a high level overview. Omitting details does not make me wrong.
This makes it sound like Britain is the good guy breaking up a fight. They literally planned for the whole thing, this is public information now. They intentionally massacred Palestinians and founded Israel as a genocidal state.
Too late Murdoch owned Wall Street Journal already sold the lie there was Iranian involvement. You would think people would learn after the Iraq War.
Ghazi Hamad, a Hamas spokesman, meanwhile told the BBC that the group had direct backing for the attack from Iran.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67044182
Lie or not, it's coming straight from the horse's mouth.
Backing, material support and commited personell are quite different levels of involvement.
Even in this article it is said that Iran did provide support to Hamas (money, weapons). What is not evident, that there was coordination and support for this particular operation. For me, it looks like splitting hairs.
It is a very important distinction. If your child beats another child it makes a huge difference if you told him he should fight back and signed him up for a boxing class, or if you planned with it when and where to attack the other child.
This is false analogy. When you arm terrorist organization, you know how it will use the armament. When you teach your son to box, you don’t, more over it is a good practice to also teach him that it can be used only in self defense, and not to kill people for whatever ideology.
If you teach your son to box to stop getting bullied you full well know that he will use it for violence. And yes Iran has some responsibility for arming Hamas. But this responsibility is a magnitude below the responsibility of directly being involved in planning or execution of the attacks. In the same wake alle the supporters of Israel that send them weapons or military aid share responsibility, but aren't directly responsible for Israeli warcrimes.
We agree that there is difference. But we disagree on degree of the difference. I do not see a way to settle this. This is subjective feeling.
I still don't get how Mossad didnt know about this? Aren't they one of the best agencies around? I mean they invented Pegasus! How did they not know this attack was impending? Something had to have happened.
Or, counterpoint, they knew.
Either it was a case of the information not getting to the right people, or the right people wanted the attack to happen. After all, a very public and horrific attack justifies a lot of sadistic level disproportionate response, and said sadistic level disproportionate response gets the base riled up to vote for you again.
Or, counter-counterpoint, everyone and their dog knows that Israel is spying on everyone and their dog, so all communications by people planning this shit are kept to in person or paper. Anything that has to be transmitted electronically likely is said in code phrases that are agreed on in person.
The truth is likely a combination of all of it.
I dont know. Given that Israel is announcing constantly over the past days how they were hitting hundreds of Hamas targets, they claim to have a very detailled knowledge of where Hamas is. That also means that they must have had noticed increased activity, because all the material for the attack needs to get somewhere and at the latest they most have had noticed the buildup of fighters and demolition equipment on the morning of the attack.
So either they knew very well that the attack was prepared at the latest when it was imminent, or they are now lying about the targets and just lobbing bombs at random places now. But also i remember the videos of the soldiers being caught off guard when Hamas was storming their bases, which means a collossal fuckup in the warning chain or deliberate non information.
Or, counter-counterpoint, everyone and their dog knows that Israel is spying on everyone and their dog, so all communications by people planning this shit are kept to in person or paper. Anything that has to be transmitted electronically likely is said in code phrases that are agreed on in person.
This has been standard practice for anyone involved in the intelligence world for over a century, so I would sure hope so!
It's still a huge intelligence failure, however, as infiltrating such groups is the primary focus of counter-intelligence organizations. This is also a long-standing practice, which is why all modern terrorist groups use compartmentalization to ensure nobody knows the entire plan.
Israel now have the clout from their own people and the US to do whatever they want. The phrase "never let a crisis go to waste" comes to mind.
They only have themselves to blame if you treat people like animals you dont get to be surprised if they turn around and bite you.
I wouldn't go so far as to say "of course" about it, Hanlon's razor still applies. But it's a scenario worth investigating.
Occam’s razor cuts sharper, here. I don’t think you can apply Hanlon’s razor to entities that we know are full of malice, as Israel is to the Palestinians.
I dont find it adequaetly explicable without malice. Israel has Gaza almost surrounded and exerts strong influence on Egypt and the border there too. The main task of the Mossad and IDF is to surveil and fend off Hamas and Hesbollah. And for Hamas the area to surveil is very small and they cant go anywhere else. Also Israel now claims hundreds of attacks on Hamas targets every day, which means they claim to know exactly where Hamas is. How can they not have noticed the buildup of material and forces necessary for such an operation?
You think the five eyes and Israel could have possibly missed the buildup to the largest Islamic terrorist incident ever? In Palestine? The most surveilled place on earth? There is absolutely no fucking way they didn’t know.
Also Egypt said they straight up told Israel so…
There seems to be a theme here. Israel appears to have a plan, that will forever change the middle east. ( as Israeli officials described it ).
Describing the attacks by Hamas as the Israeli 9/11 and Pearl Harbor, is actually not far off, as both of those incidents has later appeared to be events that was known by intelligence agencies and authorities, but was allowed to happen to serve a purpose.
This could mean that Israel will make a final push to further force out Palestinians from Gaza and maybe even the West Bank, as well as attack Iran in one way or another.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
“Iran is a major player but we can’t yet say if it was involved in the planning or training,” said R Adm Daniel Hagari, a spokesperson for the Israel Defence Forces.
In a report published on 4 October, the Tasnim news agency said the representative spoke to participants about the need for “all Islamist parties to do everything in their power to liberate al-Quds [Jerusalem]”.
Hamas used Iranian technology and logistical support to produce arms locally, he said, but it is thought to be mainly reliant on smuggling weapons from its tunnels under its border with Egypt.
Some Hamas social media accounts claim the Iranian army is eager to send drones into action, but most observers think any escalation into a multipronged war is more likely to come from Hezbollah in Lebanon.
Across the Gulf, Arab leaders, united in seeking to de-escalate the violence ideally through a prisoner swap, were at odds over how to attribute responsibility for the attacks.
So far Saudi Arabia, the country on which the politics of the region will turn, has responded to the attacks by being strongly critical of Israel’s failure to negotiate a peace settlement with the Palestinians based on a two-state solution.
The original article contains 790 words, the summary contains 200 words. Saved 75%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Come to think of it, it doesn't really make sense for Iran to want this sort of escalation to happen. The ideal situation from its standpoint is for Palestine to be a continuous thorn in Israel's side, but not too much. That's cheap to do and disruptive to Israel. If Israel connects the killing of hundreds of civilians to Iran, that could be justification for all out war. That would be damaging for both sides, but ultimately I think Iran would come out the worse.
For a vaguely comparable situation, look to Ukraine. NATO is willing to arm and train Ukraine, but committing NATO soldiers involves incredibly high amounts of risk. That's why NATO has held back, even though its conventional armed forces would have no trouble taking on Russia.
One argument I've heard that sounds plausible is that Israel and Saudi Arabia were steadily improving their relations, which is really bad for Iran (which is a rival to both of them). Setting off this timebomb now could throw a giant dose of general chaos into the situation, which Iran might be betting will result in disruption of that relationship.
I'm fine with waiting for more evidence either way, of course. Snap judgments are a bad idea here.
Well, everyone else says that Iran was involved. Though politically this helps Russia and China the most and they are also friendly towards that group.
WSJ says Iran is involved. I don't think anyone else is actually saying it unless they're just reporting what the WSJ said.
Some Hamas social media accounts claim the Iranian army is eager to send drones into action, but most observers think any escalation into a multipronged war is more likely to come from Hezbollah in Lebanon
Weird thing to say after Israel launched missiles into Lebanon...
It's almost like Israel thinks they can do whatever they want and still get to be a victim if anyone fights back
The missiles launched were from Lebanon into Israel. Then Israel retaliated with artillery.
