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America’s premier pronatalists on having ‘tons of kids’ to save the world: ‘There are going to be countries of old people starving to death’

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/article/2024/may/25/american-pronatalists-malcolm-and-simone-collins

Elon Musk (father of 11) admires them. Thousands follow their ideology. Malcolm and Simone Collins are on a mission to persuade everyone to have multiple children. But are they really model parents?

America’s premier pronatalists on having ‘tons of kids’ to save the world: ‘There are going to be countries of old people starving to death’

The highlight for me is coming up with some weird pseudoscience justification for why it’s okay to hit your kids.

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mpk

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Im also annoyed at how much words are written about the Collins. Stop promoting these doofuses. (They have come up in sneerclub before)

Apologies. First time poster, all that stuff.

The corporal punishment thing is a weirdly Anglophone obsession -- assaulting (sorry, "smacking") your kids has been a crime here since 1977 and the kids seem to be alright as well as having the bonus of being less likely to have grown up surrounded by violence and the threat of violence. In 7 years here I've seen exactly one person hit a child in public (looked a lot like a visiting grandma from elsewhere) and it came as a real shock. The more the Collins types (and, of course, fundie types) try to justify this as "normal" the less normal it appears to everyone else.

Soyweiser

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Starship troopers was written in 1959 so it predates the ban by a bit at least. (I assume there was already research on it being bad in the works then, as ST goes out of its way to decry the social sciences as fake research, but their moral system which is based on math (never explained in the book, which is prob good as it would be highly contradictory, as going to war to save a few POWs is seen as just, no matter the number of lives lost) is correct. It is a really weird book to read in 2020).

gerikson

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I've actually read Starship Troopers a long time ago and it's probably not too far out of line politically from other "silver age" SF. Heinlein had a weird career...

FWIW from memory Samuel R Delany (Black gay SF author) wrote somewhere that the realization that Johnny Rico was from the Philippines (he speaks Tagalog near the end) was very liberating for him personally as a form of inclusion. And Heinlein could probably truthfully state the only way he was "racist" was he was against the Bugs but for the entire human race.

The movies' lack of any PoC character whatsoever was probably Verhoven's way of playing with the Nazi imagery.

Soyweiser

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The movie and the book are a lot closer together than you would think btw. Might want to give it a re-read, esp with what you know now about the common (far)-right arguments. Not that the arguments in the book are good mind you, it mostly falls back on 'this is a science trust us' which is quite weak.

The movie also does have black people in it, in fact the strategic savior of the human race was a black woman. Source (the rest of the propaganda clips also has quite a lot of poc in it, even if the principle cast included none.

And that brings me back to the racism in the book, while it doesn't have overt 'I need to shout slurs at nonwhite people' racism, it contains quite a lot of 'other species/animals/countries (it nicely never uses the terms in a racist way, but it speaks about these groups in similar matters, so it is quite obvious that this just leads to racist bs as we have seen a lot in our times) as in conflict and the one breeding faster (!!!) wins the conflict. It seemed clear to me on which side of the debate about for example native americans vs europeans the book would be (I'm from city X and I say ...).

Other fun fact about the book vs movie. You prob know the 'violence solves more problems bla bla bla' 'what would the cityfathers of hiroshima say' lines from the movie, these are also in the book, but there the argument (due to in part being about animals) is worse.

So long story short, I'm happy for Samuel R Delany that there was some liberation for him which is good (also note that the realization about the non-white people should have come a little bit earlier as the girl is called Carmencita Ibanez (I'm very western European btw, so I might be wrong here as I'm not that great about all the subtleties of various racial interplays in the Americas), also she was apparently a bit of a hussy according to Juan "Johnnie" Rico) esp as it was a different time, and science fiction from that era can be dire (before that it gets even worse!) compared to our current morals, but the book itself is still very problematic (it gets weirder if you interpret the book as being told by an unreliable, slightly dumb nepobaby, which imho the book supports).

mawhrin

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yes, it was deliberate choice (along with using nazi-borrowed uniforms and tons of visual quotes from fucking leni riefenstahl.)

gerikson

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And for many people, the references whooshed over their heads in low earth orbit.

skillissuer

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now you've got me wondering if it's anglophone imported culture war, or are there some other influences, like catholic church, and to what degree

when corporal punishment was banned in my country in 2010, it was preceded by informational campaign on the state side and intolerable bitching by conservatives. when the law passed, conservatives shut the fuck up about it seemingly forever, it would make sense if it was cultural import that is if they never really held these opinions

Amoeba_Girl

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I believe it's true of more or less any country: most people are pro-hitting kids until you ban the practice and it becomes obvious that it's unacceptable (at least in overt discourse). Premier exemple of the educational potential of a law. (And now the right can pivot to racist rhetoric about which demographics don't accept our rules and hit their kids.)

VirtualOdour

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Please when referencing specific details about a location name the area you're talking about rather than say 'here' it's so annoying having to try and guess what you mean or if you're just making stuff up.

According to Wikipedia the first country to ban corporal punishment of children was Sweden in 1979 which is why I suggested the last possibility.

I don't really think it's just an English language thing in most areas of the world, again you didn't say where you're talking about so it's not possible to take any useful information from your post. A lot of non English speaking countries are very intense about corporal punishment, 'spare the rod spoil the child' is not an English maxim it's from proverbs originally in Hebrew and popularized in Latin which was popular all over the Christian and Muslim world. The Indian, Chinese, etc cultures all have similar histories and similar cultural battles going on today so it's not like it's strictly an abrahamic thing either.

I don't get why you'd claim that this is specific to English speaking people? or maybe you 1qmisused the word anglophone?

gnomicutterance

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If you walked by some strangers having a conversation with each other out in public and one of them said something you didn’t understand, would you go running up to them saying “please don’t talk to each other without explaining everything to me, I think you’re making stuff up because I don’t have all the context”?

(You would not.)

If you have something to ask OP, ask it. Politely. Don’t come in to somebody else’s conversation demanding context and calling them a liar.

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@gnomicutterance @VirtualOdour Well, exactly. For the benefit of Mr Odour here, I'm in Austria (that's the one without the kangaroos) where although physical punishment of children was first made an explicit offence in 1989 the "right" of parents to hit their children was removed from §145 of the Allgemeine Bürgerliche Gesetzbuch in 1977. Here's the 1811 text that was deleted. Happy now?

gnomicutterance

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Also, I was perfectly able to figure out you meant Austria just by searching Child Corporate Punishment Laws on wikipedia for the string "1977".

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@gnomicutterance There's also a handy-dandy map there showing how in the "developed" (I use the term advisedly, as usual) world the English-speaking countries are obvious outliers.

VirtualOdour

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Which would have been a useful thing to include in your comment if you wanted people to understand what you're talking about.

I know I'm the badie for expecting people to use basic sense when constructing an argument in a public forum but if people don't express what they mean then there's no point them talking.

And yes it's an interesting thing you point out and there may be some merit to it

VirtualOdour

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People need to learn the difference between speaking in private and in a public forum, maybe I was rude but people refusing to use basic consideration is rude too and I'm fed up of people shitting up every discussion with faulty logic hidden by concealed details.

Say the relevant information required by your assertion, it's not difficult.

dgerard

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i'm afraid your posting is not up to the standards of sneerclub, this way to the egress

self

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I’m fed up with you shitting up this discussion you weren’t invited to participate in

froztbyte

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"basic consideration" the fuck? you fucking walked into the thread sight unseen and started throwing your toys out

find some grass, and sit on it

froztbyte

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this person has some choice takes in their history, and shows a repeated pattern of replying

you won't believe what happens next!